1942, 1943, 1944 Krieghoff questions

MattR · 11-04-2005, 04:32 PM

Okay, I have been reading Mr. Gibson's book
Production for these years:
1942: 300
1943: 300
1944: 200

For those of you that have any anecdotal data - which date seems to be the most common? The rarest? Just trying to get a better understanding of which year has the most examples that are known to exist today. What's a ballpark value of one of these puppies these days in like 90-93%?
Thanks,
Matt

Big Norm · 11-04-2005, 05:03 PM

Matt,
I know that I have a prized 1943 with both mags. I believe that TomA also has a set. But, like all very rare guns, the price is really unknown. The saying is that something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The internet also has mixed prices up a lot.

Are you referring to certain HK's with or without mags? A range of 90-93% is sorta subjective. An eager sellers (don't wanter) price with his evaluation of percent blue will be different than a dealers. But just finding one of these guns that you mentioned is a big trick. Then, you had better know what you are looking at. Just look at pages 175 and 179 of Gibsons book and note the serial numbers on these 1940 and 1941 HK's. Lotsa fraud out there. Have a disinterested but knowlegable friend with you when you look at a HK and try to determine a price.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 11-04-2005, 07:00 PM

and kreigs are not something for the faint of heart, they start at $2400 for a crappy one,

If anyone has one cheaper, (a lot cheaper would make the wife happy) please contact me

Ed

MattR · 11-04-2005, 08:53 PM

Yes, I know what that's all about (worth only what someone will pay for it)!! I was just trying to get a sense of current range - figure a pretty nice gun that a reputable dealer would put in that condition with a matching mag. I realize that the 2nd matching mag adds yet another premium to the gun, etc. But these come up for sale so rarely, it makes me wonder.

As to the quantities for each of the year's, I figured you could go by the recorded serial numbers in Gibson's book, as a rough rule of thumb. More recorded numbers would possibly mean more examples of the gun. However, the actual quantities recorded are so low that it's really impossible to extrapolate from just that one observation. Just pondering out loud I suppose.

Navy · 11-05-2005, 03:42 PM

I recently sold a P-code with 2 matching mags, 99%+ for $13.5K and only sold it because it was part of a package deal. Kriegs are like crack cocaine: highly addictive and strictly a sellers market.

Tom A

Big Norm · 11-07-2005, 09:52 PM

Even if you should find a HK mag, it will cost big money. I was just surfing the net last night with an adult beverage in hand and I saw one for sale for $1000. The serial number was P3A. If I remember the site, I'll get back with everyone. Cripe, that price is right up there with a Borchardt magazine.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 11-07-2005, 10:20 PM

I was just thinking (thats a dangerous thing for me to do). Wasn't there a thing going around a few years ago that there were a bunch of fake 1944 HK's circulating? I was talking to the infamous Harvy Branch at an OGCA meeting about it and Ralph Shatttuck was standing behind me. It just happens that Ralph was looking for someone with an export license that he wanted to use because he had just sold an 1944 HK to a foreign guy. Ralph really got upset with me.
Big Norm

Navy · 11-07-2005, 11:24 PM

The general consensus is that *many* 1944 and ALL 1945 Krieghoffs are bogus. Be careful....

Tom A

John D. · 11-07-2005, 11:32 PM

A correction....

Not all second series 1944s and 1945 HKs are fake. Someone should someday - ask me how I know. And the differences between a "real" and "bogus" 2nd series '44 or 1945.

As a fact - not as "I heard it at a gunshow"....

Not all are bogus - certainly not "ALL 1945" HKs....

Welcome to 25+ years of HK collecting and research.

John

Edward Tinker · 11-07-2005, 11:48 PM

but, I already know

John D. · 11-07-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
but, I already know

Well - I know you do know... I told you why on the damned phone!!!

LOL!!!

John D.

maddog350gt · 11-08-2005, 12:04 PM

At last April's Reno gun show a 1943 Krieghoff with two matching mags (one may have been a forced match) and a holster sold before the show opened for $6,000. I didn't make a note of the serial number, but I seem to remember it was in the 11,000 range. It was in better than 90% condition. My guess is you couldn't buy it today for that price. Krieghoff's are going up very fast, due to limited availability.

Bob M.

Big Norm · 11-09-2005, 05:49 AM

Now I am afraid to take pictures of my 1943 HK with two matching mags. There seems to be too many of them with two matching mags in supposedly excellent condition.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 11-09-2005, 06:04 AM

The P3A commercial HK mag that I mentioned earlier is for sale by Simpson.

P3A COMMERCIAL KRIEGHOFF MAGAZINE; 78% blue, 122 Code E37, excellent condition, $1200

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...acfa79cc154c84

I said that it was for sale for $1000 but I was wrong. But this seems like a lot of money for a Luger magazine, even a HK magazine.
Big Norm

Navy · 11-09-2005, 09:00 AM

I will readily defer to John D.'s scholarship in Krieghoffs. As a relative newbie to the field, my "knowledge" has been acquired through Gibson, personal observation and conversations with long time khoff collectors. I cannot attest to the validity of their comments, merely the consistency of them re: '44 and '45 pistols.

Now, navy guns, that is something entirely different.

Tom A

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
Now I am afraid to take pictures of my 1943 HK with two matching mags. There seems to be too many of them with two matching mags in supposedly excellent condition.
Big Norm

Norm, you are right, it is a reblue fake, please send it to me to use as a "shooter".

You do not have to take pictures of her ahead of time.

MattR · 11-09-2005, 10:20 AM

so, are these fakes obvious or are they that good? If I sat down with the gun, Gibson's book, and had ample time, would I find anomalies that would make me suspect? Are the fakers as good as the documentation?
-Matt

Navy · 11-09-2005, 01:30 PM

Matt,

Of the 3-4 fake Kriegs I have encountered, one was a fantasy piece and the others were sufficiently good replicas that they required micrometer measurement and high magnification to spot the problems. There is a lot of money at stake so the fakes have to be very good.

Tom A

MattR · 11-09-2005, 05:12 PM

There was one Krieghoff that I saw that I wouldn't call a fake, it was more of a hachet job. But I find it interesting that someone will go to the level of trouble that you describe.
Thanks,
Matt

John D. · 11-12-2005, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MattR
so, are these fakes obvious or are they that good? If I sat down with the gun, Gibson's book, and had ample time, would I find anomalies that would make me suspect? Are the fakers as good as the documentation?
-Matt

Hey Matt and Tom..!

Yes - as Tom mentions - there are differences. Most of the faked ones I've seen fall into several categories. Sideframe HK have their own "issues" - but most in the 1940+ era have some of the following earmarks: Look for incorrect polishing of some of the small parts. Look especially at the toggle train (top, sides, chamfer and even the underside). Also - look at the "proofs" and stamps, as they have been redone to cover the fact the HK has been "restored". It also helps to know what an original stamps should look like. As well - look at the frame/rail polish. It's always there on boosted HKs, but it's incorrect much of the time. The "thumbprint" used to be a good indication, but some of the "restorers" have matched that pretty danged well....

For the "G", "S" 36, 936, 1937 & 1938 dated HKs - they have another set to look for as well....

Isn't collectung "fun"??!!!

John D.

11-04-2005, 04:32 PM	#1
MattR User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1942, 1943, 1944 Krieghoff questions Okay, I have been reading Mr. Gibson's book Production for these years: 1942: 300 1943: 300 1944: 200 For those of you that have any anecdotal data - which date seems to be the most common? The rarest? Just trying to get a better understanding of which year has the most examples that are known to exist today. What's a ballpark value of one of these puppies these days in like 90-93%? Thanks, Matt

11-04-2005, 07:00 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	and kreigs are not something for the faint of heart, they start at $2400 for a crappy one, If anyone has one cheaper, (a lot cheaper would make the wife happy) please contact me Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-07-2005, 11:48 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	but, I already know __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-04-2005, 05:03 PM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Matt, I know that I have a prized 1943 with both mags. I believe that TomA also has a set. But, like all very rare guns, the price is really unknown. The saying is that something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The internet also has mixed prices up a lot. Are you referring to certain HK's with or without mags? A range of 90-93% is sorta subjective. An eager sellers (don't wanter) price with his evaluation of percent blue will be different than a dealers. But just finding one of these guns that you mentioned is a big trick. Then, you had better know what you are looking at. Just look at pages 175 and 179 of Gibsons book and note the serial numbers on these 1940 and 1941 HK's. Lotsa fraud out there. Have a disinterested but knowlegable friend with you when you look at a HK and try to determine a price. Big Norm

11-04-2005, 08:53 PM	#4
MattR User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, I know what that's all about (worth only what someone will pay for it)!! I was just trying to get a sense of current range - figure a pretty nice gun that a reputable dealer would put in that condition with a matching mag. I realize that the 2nd matching mag adds yet another premium to the gun, etc. But these come up for sale so rarely, it makes me wonder. As to the quantities for each of the year's, I figured you could go by the recorded serial numbers in Gibson's book, as a rough rule of thumb. More recorded numbers would possibly mean more examples of the gun. However, the actual quantities recorded are so low that it's really impossible to extrapolate from just that one observation. Just pondering out loud I suppose.

11-05-2005, 03:42 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I recently sold a P-code with 2 matching mags, 99%+ for $13.5K and only sold it because it was part of a package deal. Kriegs are like crack cocaine: highly addictive and strictly a sellers market. Tom A

11-07-2005, 09:52 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Even if you should find a HK mag, it will cost big money. I was just surfing the net last night with an adult beverage in hand and I saw one for sale for $1000. The serial number was P3A. If I remember the site, I'll get back with everyone. Cripe, that price is right up there with a Borchardt magazine. Big Norm

11-07-2005, 10:20 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I was just thinking (thats a dangerous thing for me to do). Wasn't there a thing going around a few years ago that there were a bunch of fake 1944 HK's circulating? I was talking to the infamous Harvy Branch at an OGCA meeting about it and Ralph Shatttuck was standing behind me. It just happens that Ralph was looking for someone with an export license that he wanted to use because he had just sold an 1944 HK to a foreign guy. Ralph really got upset with me. Big Norm

11-07-2005, 11:24 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The general consensus is that many 1944 and ALL 1945 Krieghoffs are bogus. Be careful.... Tom A

11-07-2005, 11:32 PM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	A correction.... Not all second series 1944s and 1945 HKs are fake. Someone should someday - ask me how I know. And the differences between a "real" and "bogus" 2nd series '44 or 1945. As a fact - not as "I heard it at a gunshow".... Not all are bogus - certainly not "ALL 1945" HKs.... Welcome to 25+ years of HK collecting and research. John

11-08-2005, 12:04 PM	#12
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	At last April's Reno gun show a 1943 Krieghoff with two matching mags (one may have been a forced match) and a holster sold before the show opened for $6,000. I didn't make a note of the serial number, but I seem to remember it was in the 11,000 range. It was in better than 90% condition. My guess is you couldn't buy it today for that price. Krieghoff's are going up very fast, due to limited availability. Bob M.

11-09-2005, 05:49 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Now I am afraid to take pictures of my 1943 HK with two matching mags. There seems to be too many of them with two matching mags in supposedly excellent condition. Big Norm

11-09-2005, 06:04 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	The P3A commercial HK mag that I mentioned earlier is for sale by Simpson. P3A COMMERCIAL KRIEGHOFF MAGAZINE; 78% blue, 122 Code E37, excellent condition, $1200 http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...acfa79cc154c84 I said that it was for sale for $1000 but I was wrong. But this seems like a lot of money for a Luger magazine, even a HK magazine. Big Norm

11-09-2005, 09:00 AM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I will readily defer to John D.'s scholarship in Krieghoffs. As a relative newbie to the field, my "knowledge" has been acquired through Gibson, personal observation and conversations with long time khoff collectors. I cannot attest to the validity of their comments, merely the consistency of them re: '44 and '45 pistols. Now, navy guns, that is something entirely different. Tom A

11-09-2005, 10:20 AM	#17
MattR User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	so, are these fakes obvious or are they that good? If I sat down with the gun, Gibson's book, and had ample time, would I find anomalies that would make me suspect? Are the fakers as good as the documentation? -Matt

11-09-2005, 01:30 PM	#18
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Matt, Of the 3-4 fake Kriegs I have encountered, one was a fantasy piece and the others were sufficiently good replicas that they required micrometer measurement and high magnification to spot the problems. There is a lot of money at stake so the fakes have to be very good. Tom A

11-09-2005, 05:12 PM	#19
MattR User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There was one Krieghoff that I saw that I wouldn't call a fake, it was more of a hachet job. But I find it interesting that someone will go to the level of trouble that you describe. Thanks, Matt