Serial Numbers

[zeke1312]

How are sn's tracked? I think I know the answers to most but here are some examples: A weapon purchased in 2006 from a dealer; one purchased in 1986; etc. I assume one can trace by refering back to the mfg no matter what the year of mfg(?). Second, how would the gun be tracked from the point of mfg through to current owner?

What about a "bring back" luger? How are their sn's tracked?

I assume as an example, tracking a Winchester begins and ends at the mfg(?).

For a Luger, tracking begins and ends at the mfg?

How about a gun sold new in say 1980 from a dealer to a customer who then sells to another person, who in turn sells, all within several years?

These examples of course would depend on if or when a gun sn is entered into a tracking "system". Where is and who if any, maintains such a database?

Lastly, how is a new gun sn tracked? I know at the point of sale, the 4473 records the sn but is that where the sn documentation ends? I believe the 4473 must be kept by the selling FFL for 20 yrs but what happens after the 4473 would be destroyed after 20 yrs assuming the gun was passed onto a relative, then, etc, etc, until the sn cannot be tracked?

Of all the "illegal" guns out there, typically owned by those who would use in the act of a crime, how can they be traced?

I'm interested to what effect the Brady Bill (and any other programs or laws in the past) is.

I also assume many or most Lugers brought back from WWII, etc., are not in a "tracking system" unless sold by a dealer.

I had a discussion on the topic with fellow workers and we had varying opinions. In part, the discussion posed a senario by which the US govt would succumb to the UN and begin to collect all weapons including our Lugers.

[thegundude]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no "system" for tracking gun serial numbers since it is illegal for the government to maintain such a list.

The closest thing there is to a tracking system, as such, is the dealer logs. But those logs aren't then fed into some bigger system.

This is how it works to the best of my understanding.

The manufacturer ships it to a dealer or wholesaler and logs that transaction with serial number out of their books. The dealer receives it, logs it into his books with serial number and puts it on the shelf or calls the customer who ordered it. The serial number is then written onto the proper forms when the customer takes delivery of it and logged out of the dealers book with the new owners name attached.

So, if the government wanted to know where a certain serial number gun came from, they go to the manufacturer and start following the paper trail. They don't maintain a list of serial numbers and owners, partly because they're not allowed to and partly because they don't have to. They can just call the manufacturer and do a little leg work.

[trigger643]

Guns in most states of the US are not tracked at all. Almost all used guns with any age on them will have holes in the trail. The Government isn't allowed to keep records of purchases or weapons. Old guns, such as vet bring backs are not reported. When a transfer takes place at a dealer and the BATF backround check is done. The SER# is not reported, however the BATF does require reporting of whether or not it is a handgun or a longgun -- that, and the purchaser, is the extent of the information they receive. But after clearance, they are to destroy this record.

However, from personal experience, they can follow the trail of a new gun, for example...

I purchased a snub nosed .44 new in 1998. I traded it to a dealer at a gun show in 2000. In 2001 it was used in a crime in New Orleans. They went back to Taurus. Taurus put them in touch with the distributor in Georgia, who pointed them to the dealer in Shreveport, who gave them my name and number. I provided the law enforcement agency with a copy of the bill of sale describing my trade and who I'd traded it to. From there, they went to the New Orleans dealer who acquired the gun from me, and I assume, onto the person they in turn sold it to.

A long, slow process requiring a lot of legwork. I don't have a problem with this. I would have a problem if they wanted me to register all my weapons.

As a foot note. I can buy or sell a gun to an individual without disclosing the transaction to anyone or doing a backround check. One catch, if I knowingly sell it to a felon or have knowledge that the purchaser intends to use it in a crime, I could be held liable.

[zeke1312]

Selling a handgun to an individual...don't you need to go thru an FFL or is that only for transactions from one state to another? I thought the only situtation allowing no FFL & backround check is when a gun is passed to someone in the immediate family.

[Parabellus]

Here you go Zeke,

If you can wade through the ATF website you should find what you need to know at the FEDERAL level.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/

Then go to the NRA site to get it in English.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Default.aspx

Then read up there on the gun laws of each state you need information about.

Happy hunting.

Russell

[trigger643]

Zeke and Para, the simple of it is: a transaction between two individuals is unregulated. However, interstate (out-of-state), requires the intervention of a lics. FFL to complete a backround check at the receiving end. Let us take two senerios. (You know I live without spell check day-by-day, no matter what Ed says)...

1. You live in the next town. You want to buy my gun. I don't know, don't believe you are a felon or intend to use it in a criminal act... We meet at McDonalds and you buy my gun in the parking lot. Verdict: Legal.

part 2. interstate transaction.
2. You live in Virginia. I live in Colorado. You buy my gun on the internet. You want me to ship it to you. Well, whole new set of rules. *long-gun, hand-gun* You have to be an FFL (or C&R if that applies), to receive it directly. But I only have to be an individual selling a gun. BATF solution: I, as a seller, must ship it interstate to an FFL. I ship it to them, they do the "transfer" (i.e. back ground check), to you, and all is right with the world.

Rules on shipping can be covered elsewhere, or by me by PM.

[Parabellus]

Except in Kalifornia or any state that says otherwise, especially in San Francisco where it is now illegal to possess any handgun by the vote of its own population. Go figure.

Russell

[75BShooter]

Para,
I also live in the Bay Area,San Mateo, as I understand what happened in SF is the mayor by his order put the ban "on hold " so the NRA could file their announced Lawsuit and the issue would be settled in court. NRA maintains that the vote violates the Constitution.

[zeke1312]

What year did the state to state FFL requirement become effective? I assume if private to private in state, you would still need a hangun permit? I didn't know the govt can't keep a list of gun sn's as posted in this thread.

[Parabellus]

Tim,

Yes, this is in front of the court system and will likely be overturned. The question seems to hinge on whether a city or county can enact laws in conflict with state law. The logical follow-on is whether a state law can conflict with federal law. In other words, would Glen's hypothetical transaction between otherwise eligible gun owners now in California, which is legal at Federal level, be required to register the transaction to satisfy the state requirement? Maybe someone will test this one in court.

Russell

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by zeke1312
What year did the state to state FFL requirement become effective? I assume if private to private in state, you would still need a hangun permit? I didn't know the govt can't keep a list of gun sn's as posted in this thread.

Zeke, you must not be a life-long resident of Nebraska or Arizona? I ask because neither state is very anti-gun, so assume you came from a state like Michigan or New York?


I have lived in a lot of a the US, but mainly in fairly pro gun states, down south and out west. As an example, since I have never done anything illegal, it would never occur to me that if my uncle gave me a WW2 bring back, or even his neighbor in South Dakota, that I couldn't take it back to Colorado or Washington, and not occur to me that I should register it (since there is no state registration there)...


Ed

[75BShooter]

Russell,
I think your last remark is a good on, likely will get tested in court at some point in time.

Tim

[zeke1312]

Ed:

Actually, I grew up in Philadelphia, City of Brotherly Love don't ya know, but Uncle Sam sent me to Nebraska among other places. I've been here since 1963. Arizona...we have a winter spot in Ajo. Az and NE are pro-gun, especially AZ as you noted. Lincoln, NE requires a handgun permit to purchase. Although NE legislature recently approved CCW, Omaha bans CCW and the mayor of Lincoln wants to make CCW illegal in this city.

My questions are posed so I have more "ammo" in discussing the topic at work. Questions prompt more. As an example, if I purchased a handgun in AZ and brought to Lincoln, unless I had a handgun permit for the purchase, it would be illegal to have that gun, at least that's my "read" on it.

But I don't want to belabor the subject. A point of interest, recently in the Lincoln Journal Star newspaper, the Chief of Police gave some reasons for not allowing CCW including "guns may fall out of holsters". Although NE is conservative, Lincoln is no so in the case of guns.

I have recently received my C&R and am reading the manuals sent to me. I will wade through them and learn more.

Thanks!

[Edward Tinker]

interesting, I didn't know Lincoln was so anti-gun!





Ed