"god is only pretend"

Jack Lawman · 10-01-2006, 09:09 PM

There is a member whose signature line reads, "god is only pretend".

I am posting this thread to give my opinion on the matter.

I am not against the posting of positive, non-secular phrases or ideas. I do feel that "god is only pretend" is most certainly a challenge to all of us who do believe in some higher authority. How about, "I do not believe in god" ? That would certainly convey the thought without provoking anyone.

If the coin were flipped, wouldn't it then be okay to have a signature "Atheists are dead wrong" ?

I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God. It's foolhearty to undertake such an excercise. I would like to know if anyone else is offended by this signature. I believe it is challenging in its nature.

Am I being overly defensive?

Jack

P.S. I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God.

Ron Wood · 10-01-2006, 09:21 PM

Yep, Jack, you are being overly defensive. If you do not wish to open a debate, let sleeping dogs lie. As a Christian I am also taken aback by the need of some individuals to profess their faith in their signature block. It is inappropriate, but I do not see the need to single them out for censure. So I choose to ignore what could be considered excessive religious fervor, just as I choose to ignore non-belief.

Ron Smith · 10-01-2006, 09:25 PM

Ron,

It cannot be expressed any better... Thank you!!!

Ron

Jack Lawman · 10-01-2006, 09:30 PM

Ron,
Here's a highly religious signature from this forum:

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

It's just a quote (from the Bible), doesn't challenge anybody, and doesn't insinuate that anyone else is wrong. It only has meaning if you believe in Jesus.

"god is only pretend" is a call out.

You didn't mention if you see a difference.

Jack

policeluger · 10-01-2006, 10:03 PM

Jack, while Ron W. has some good points, I am with you all the way....never back down.

Ron Smith · 10-01-2006, 10:19 PM

This is exactly why any religious and political views and opinions should be

kept private.

Jack, It's only a "callout" if you allow it to be. And allow Howard to stir the pot!!!

Lets stick to guns and collecting.

pipeman45 · 10-01-2006, 10:24 PM

I too find it offencive.
That being said. I can find no where in our constitution where I have the right not to be offended.
I couldn't disagree with gentelman more, but will defend his right to say it with my last breath!!!

John Sabato · 10-01-2006, 10:26 PM

As a very long time moderator, and sometimes webmaster for this site, I would have to say that The Lugerforum doesn't as a policy limit freedom of speech unless that speech, or in this case text, is intentionally intended to offend someone or a group of someones...

The Forum Decorum document, drafted many years ago by Dok, our webmaster emeritus, and approved by what was at that time generally considered the "Board" (a non-public body of members who guided the content and direction taken by this forum, is still valid... while general in nature, it does define what is considered inappropriate behavior on this forum.

As most who frequent this forum are well aware, I have never made any secret of or about my faith... but when I mention it in public, including on this forum, it is never done to incense others... but rather a call to others who believe as I do, to respond to a specific request for prayer... it is always done in the General Discussion Forum... where non-Lugerforum topics are and can be discussed, provided they are not intended to be derogatory or intentionally offensive.

FLAMES of any type are not permitted on this forum... but an expression of one's beliefs are not a flame...

My own signature block is a direct quote from a document I am sure you all recognize... this quote embodies my personal philosophy about life and how it came to be... it is not a call-out as described by Jack above, and I can't consider the "god is only pretend" line to be either...

My personal opinion on the above signature line is quite different from the one I have and enforce with my Moderator hat on... IMNSHO, if you can't look around yourself and see the evidence of a Creator, you are not looking very hard... but that is YOUR choice... I would encourage you to look further at the evidence... and ask questions of those who don't believe as you do... you just might be missing something.

So in closing, despite my personal concern about what the signature line says, I can not see where the forum decorum has been violated...Anyone who disagrees is welcome to contact me off-line via PM, to discuss the matter.

I also feel that Ron Wood could not have said it more eloquently... ignore those feelings and sentiments of those with whom you disagree... Kudos to you Ron... Your level-headedness is just one of the many reasons you are a moderator on this board... I hope you always keep this site as your internet home...

In a similar vein, for anyone who REALLY believes that life is the result of complete randomness and ends in a slow ride in a hearse... I welcome your personal contact and a cordial discussion on a personal level about the differences in our philosophy... and the bases of our individual belief systems...

... and Jack... I absolutely love your line ... "Athiests are DEAD wrong!"

NOTE: This post has been edited by me to emphasize (in bold type) that the invitation for personal contact was meant to convey off-line via PM or email and not on the forum because there is no need to involve anyone in the discussion except those that have a direct interest in the matter. - thanks, John Sabato

blayne · 10-01-2006, 10:48 PM

John, it is your bolding of your signature lines that are obvious reference to God. I take it that way and I am sure others do also. I know where the lines are from, but you have chosen lines that are religious in nature.

blayne

Jack Lawman · 10-01-2006, 10:55 PM

Thank You all for your sage advice.

Thank you all for indulging my fist shaking. I really am a person with a lot of class... only problem is it's all low

.

Messages received and understood.

Jack

Ron Wood · 10-01-2006, 11:11 PM

Horsefeathers, Jack. There is nothing low class about your response, it was from the heart.

Parabellus · 10-02-2006, 02:23 AM

To the faithful, the faithless, and those not too sure:

I am still pretty new here and just getting to know more of you a little at a time.
Please take these few words as an expression of my fondness and respect for you. I know you've heard it before.

It is one of the basic tenets of religious faith, particularly of Christian faith, to express or confess that faith to others. It is part of the covenant with our Lord. Our constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. There is undeniably a conscious effort on certain quarters of our society to purge all religious expression form public view. In spite of this the truly faithful WILL continue to confess with their lips and their pens, not to show anyone how good they are but to let others know how great He is. Christians know they are not perfect but they also know they must strive toward perfection. Part of that is to show by example the power and goodness that comes from faith in the Creator. Who will know where that goodness originates unless they are told that it comes from God?

My own signature line applies to the existence of higher intelligence and everlasting life, not just extraterrestrial life (Sagan) or WMD (Rumsfeld). Fact is, I see evidence everywhere and all the time. My own view of atheists is that they choose to pretend God does not exist. I tried that at one stage of my life but the evidence overwhelmed me.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm having a little problem with the authenticity (or lack thereof) of a Navy-style Luger on another page. There is a guy you all know over there that has no compunction about expressing his opinion. Gotta love him!

God bless you all,
Russell

10-02-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
Yep, Jack, you are being overly defensive. If you do not wish to open a debate, let sleeping dogs lie. As a Christian I am also taken aback by the need of some individuals to profess their faith in their signature block. It is inappropriate, but I do not see the need to single them out for censure. So I choose to ignore what could be considered excessive religious fervor, just as I choose to ignore non-belief.

Dear Mr Wood - you echo my own sentiments exactly, except that I am Jewish, not Christian.

My religious fervour, or lack of it, is a matter between me and the Almighty.

Best wishes

tac

John Sabato · 10-02-2006, 08:27 AM

Jack, I totally agree with Ron Wood on this point. There was nothing low class about your query or your feelings... This thread is a discussion of different points of view, not an argument.

Blayne,

... the lines I have chosen for my tag line were chosen carefully...they state unequivocally that we are a free nation, and that all who live here enjoy the same rights and privileges and chances at success... they are also the legal evidence that the founders of this country so believed in the existence of a Creator, that they recognized that fact in official documentation that they based the establishment of this country on it. So yes, they do reference the existence of a Creator as the basis and from whose authority all our unalienable rights extend... the phrases would not be bolded, if I had not intended them to have emphasis... the written word cannot by its very nature convey tone and intonation about the feelings they are intended to express.

It doesn't matter how many times I read those words, I am still in awe of the insight and intellect of the founding fathers and their unabashed acknowledgement of the being to whom they owe their existence, and what they accomplished with His endorsement... We are not the greatest nation on the face of the earth by chance... nor are we perfect... only the best that has come along so far.

thank you ALL, and especially you Jack, for your thoughtful and sensitive sharing of your feelings on this matter... discussions of this nature, while uncomfortable for some, are informative, enjoyable, and in no way threaten the "peace" we all enjoy here on this site as we enjoy our favorite hobby... They just cause us all to think.

lugerluser · 10-02-2006, 09:54 AM

Well John, I guess I am NOT alone! Thanks Jack for bringing it out. Sean.....

Edward Tinker · 10-02-2006, 10:14 AM

John, I disagree completely, and I am not happy this thread has gone this way. YOU believe this is acceptable, I do not. As a moderator, we should not be forcing the issue, and this thread forces a religious issue and you and others have pushed it. This forces the issue far more than did Kuntas three words in his signature.

Folks did not like kuntas signature, and this started???? Because you are religious, you feel this thread is acceptable. I have already had one member write me, he refuses to stay on a forum pushing this, he is a Christian but feels that this is not acceptable and has deleted his avatar and most of his profile. Is this what you want? Because you feel strongly you feel this is acceptable as a moderator. I do not.

This is a Luger forum, I thought non-secular and welcoming to all. That is not what I am seeing at this time.

NavyLugerLover · 10-02-2006, 10:28 AM

Every signature should be about Lugers...
I'm Atheist, but if it is not written "death to Atheists" or "You have to believe in God", it doesn't matter for me...

G.T. · 10-02-2006, 10:28 AM

All I know, Is if you're going to poke someone in the eye with a sharpe stick on this forum, you'd better write and read fast!! Cuz your post is going to go away pretty darn quick!! My hats off to the moderators on this forum... you're doing a great job! best to all, til...lat'r...GT

policeluger · 10-02-2006, 10:32 AM

com'on Ed and help us out, stick around....we've haven't even gotten to the same sex Luger collecting partners.....you should read Auctions Arms open forums, we here could not hold a candle to 'em....best to Terry/

ChaserII · 10-02-2006, 11:18 AM

The First Evangelical Self Rightious Forum

Hypocrisy and Ridicule is our moto

Good Christians???

10-01-2006, 09:09 PM	#1
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	"god is only pretend" There is a member whose signature line reads, "god is only pretend". I am posting this thread to give my opinion on the matter. I am not against the posting of positive, non-secular phrases or ideas. I do feel that "god is only pretend" is most certainly a challenge to all of us who do believe in some higher authority. How about, "I do not believe in god" ? That would certainly convey the thought without provoking anyone. If the coin were flipped, wouldn't it then be okay to have a signature "Atheists are dead wrong" ? I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God. It's foolhearty to undertake such an excercise. I would like to know if anyone else is offended by this signature. I believe it is challenging in its nature. Am I being overly defensive? Jack P.S. I do not intend this thread to become a debate over whether or not there is a God. __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

10-01-2006, 09:21 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Yep, Jack, you are being overly defensive. If you do not wish to open a debate, let sleeping dogs lie. As a Christian I am also taken aback by the need of some individuals to profess their faith in their signature block. It is inappropriate, but I do not see the need to single them out for censure. So I choose to ignore what could be considered excessive religious fervor, just as I choose to ignore non-belief. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2006, 09:25 PM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ron, It cannot be expressed any better... Thank you!!! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-01-2006, 09:30 PM	#4
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Ron, Here's a highly religious signature from this forum: John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." It's just a quote (from the Bible), doesn't challenge anybody, and doesn't insinuate that anyone else is wrong. It only has meaning if you believe in Jesus. "god is only pretend" is a call out. You didn't mention if you see a difference. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

10-01-2006, 10:19 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	This is exactly why any religious and political views and opinions should be kept private. Jack, It's only a "callout" if you allow it to be. And allow Howard to stir the pot!!! Lets stick to guns and collecting. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-01-2006, 10:03 PM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Jack, while Ron W. has some good points, I am with you all the way....never back down.

10-01-2006, 10:24 PM	#7
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I too find it offencive. That being said. I can find no where in our constitution where I have the right not to be offended. I couldn't disagree with gentelman more, but will defend his right to say it with my last breath!!! __________________ Dave

10-01-2006, 10:26 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	As a very long time moderator, and sometimes webmaster for this site, I would have to say that The Lugerforum doesn't as a policy limit freedom of speech unless that speech, or in this case text, is intentionally intended to offend someone or a group of someones... The Forum Decorum document, drafted many years ago by Dok, our webmaster emeritus, and approved by what was at that time generally considered the "Board" (a non-public body of members who guided the content and direction taken by this forum, is still valid... while general in nature, it does define what is considered inappropriate behavior on this forum. As most who frequent this forum are well aware, I have never made any secret of or about my faith... but when I mention it in public, including on this forum, it is never done to incense others... but rather a call to others who believe as I do, to respond to a specific request for prayer... it is always done in the General Discussion Forum... where non-Lugerforum topics are and can be discussed, provided they are not intended to be derogatory or intentionally offensive. FLAMES of any type are not permitted on this forum... but an expression of one's beliefs are not a flame... My own signature block is a direct quote from a document I am sure you all recognize... this quote embodies my personal philosophy about life and how it came to be... it is not a call-out as described by Jack above, and I can't consider the "god is only pretend" line to be either... My personal opinion on the above signature line is quite different from the one I have and enforce with my Moderator hat on... IMNSHO, if you can't look around yourself and see the evidence of a Creator, you are not looking very hard... but that is YOUR choice... I would encourage you to look further at the evidence... and ask questions of those who don't believe as you do... you just might be missing something. So in closing, despite my personal concern about what the signature line says, I can not see where the forum decorum has been violated...Anyone who disagrees is welcome to contact me off-line via PM, to discuss the matter. I also feel that Ron Wood could not have said it more eloquently... ignore those feelings and sentiments of those with whom you disagree... Kudos to you Ron... Your level-headedness is just one of the many reasons you are a moderator on this board... I hope you always keep this site as your internet home... In a similar vein, for anyone who REALLY believes that life is the result of complete randomness and ends in a slow ride in a hearse... I welcome your personal contact and a cordial discussion on a personal level about the differences in our philosophy... and the bases of our individual belief systems... ... and Jack... I absolutely love your line ... "Athiests are DEAD wrong!" NOTE: This post has been edited by me to emphasize (in bold type) that the invitation for personal contact was meant to convey off-line via PM or email and not on the forum because there is no need to involve anyone in the discussion except those that have a direct interest in the matter. - thanks, John Sabato __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-01-2006, 10:48 PM	#9
blayne User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 34 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, it is your bolding of your signature lines that are obvious reference to God. I take it that way and I am sure others do also. I know where the lines are from, but you have chosen lines that are religious in nature. blayne

10-01-2006, 10:55 PM	#10
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Off my chest... Thank You all for your sage advice. Thank you all for indulging my fist shaking. I really am a person with a lot of class... only problem is it's all low . Messages received and understood. Jack

10-01-2006, 11:11 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Horsefeathers, Jack. There is nothing low class about your response, it was from the heart. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2006, 02:23 AM	#12
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	To the faithful, the faithless, and those not too sure: I am still pretty new here and just getting to know more of you a little at a time. Please take these few words as an expression of my fondness and respect for you. I know you've heard it before. It is one of the basic tenets of religious faith, particularly of Christian faith, to express or confess that faith to others. It is part of the covenant with our Lord. Our constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. There is undeniably a conscious effort on certain quarters of our society to purge all religious expression form public view. In spite of this the truly faithful WILL continue to confess with their lips and their pens, not to show anyone how good they are but to let others know how great He is. Christians know they are not perfect but they also know they must strive toward perfection. Part of that is to show by example the power and goodness that comes from faith in the Creator. Who will know where that goodness originates unless they are told that it comes from God? My own signature line applies to the existence of higher intelligence and everlasting life, not just extraterrestrial life (Sagan) or WMD (Rumsfeld). Fact is, I see evidence everywhere and all the time. My own view of atheists is that they choose to pretend God does not exist. I tried that at one stage of my life but the evidence overwhelmed me. Now, if you will excuse me, I'm having a little problem with the authenticity (or lack thereof) of a Navy-style Luger on another page. There is a guy you all know over there that has no compunction about expressing his opinion. Gotta love him! God bless you all, Russell __________________

10-02-2006, 08:27 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Jack, I totally agree with Ron Wood on this point. There was nothing low class about your query or your feelings... This thread is a discussion of different points of view, not an argument. Blayne, ... the lines I have chosen for my tag line were chosen carefully...they state unequivocally that we are a free nation, and that all who live here enjoy the same rights and privileges and chances at success... they are also the legal evidence that the founders of this country so believed in the existence of a Creator, that they recognized that fact in official documentation that they based the establishment of this country on it. So yes, they do reference the existence of a Creator as the basis and from whose authority all our unalienable rights extend... the phrases would not be bolded, if I had not intended them to have emphasis... the written word cannot by its very nature convey tone and intonation about the feelings they are intended to express. It doesn't matter how many times I read those words, I am still in awe of the insight and intellect of the founding fathers and their unabashed acknowledgement of the being to whom they owe their existence, and what they accomplished with His endorsement... We are not the greatest nation on the face of the earth by chance... nor are we perfect... only the best that has come along so far. thank you ALL, and especially you Jack, for your thoughtful and sensitive sharing of your feelings on this matter... discussions of this nature, while uncomfortable for some, are informative, enjoyable, and in no way threaten the "peace" we all enjoy here on this site as we enjoy our favorite hobby... They just cause us all to think. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-02-2006, 09:54 AM	#15
lugerluser User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Winchester, Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well John, I guess I am NOT alone! Thanks Jack for bringing it out. Sean..... __________________ "GOD IS!"

10-02-2006, 10:14 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	John, I disagree completely, and I am not happy this thread has gone this way. YOU believe this is acceptable, I do not. As a moderator, we should not be forcing the issue, and this thread forces a religious issue and you and others have pushed it. This forces the issue far more than did Kuntas three words in his signature. Folks did not like kuntas signature, and this started???? Because you are religious, you feel this thread is acceptable. I have already had one member write me, he refuses to stay on a forum pushing this, he is a Christian but feels that this is not acceptable and has deleted his avatar and most of his profile. Is this what you want? Because you feel strongly you feel this is acceptable as a moderator. I do not. This is a Luger forum, I thought non-secular and welcoming to all. That is not what I am seeing at this time.

10-02-2006, 10:28 AM	#17
NavyLugerLover User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: American Citizen outside the USA (Austria) Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Every signature should be about Lugers... I'm Atheist, but if it is not written "death to Atheists" or "You have to believe in God", it doesn't matter for me... __________________ Swiss Lugers, (.30): DWM 1900, 1906 2nd variation, W+F 1906-24, 1929 Privat, 1929 Military, 9 mm 1929 Military. WW1 DWM German Lugers (9mm): Lange Pistolen P08-14 1916 & 1917, P08 1913, P08-14 1917, Navy P1904 altered safety, Navy P04-1906 downward safety. WW 2 Mauser German Lugers (9mm): 42-1940, byf 41, byf 42 black widow. And some other things...

10-02-2006, 10:28 AM	#18
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	read fast!! All I know, Is if you're going to poke someone in the eye with a sharpe stick on this forum, you'd better write and read fast!! Cuz your post is going to go away pretty darn quick!! My hats off to the moderators on this forum... you're doing a great job! best to all, til...lat'r...GT

10-02-2006, 10:32 AM	#19
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	com'on Ed and help us out, stick around....we've haven't even gotten to the same sex Luger collecting partners.....you should read Auctions Arms open forums, we here could not hold a candle to 'em....best to Terry/

10-02-2006, 11:18 AM	#20
ChaserII New User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The First Evangelical Self Rightious Forum Hypocrisy and Ridicule is our moto Good Christians???