1914 Artillery Luger Missing Rear Sight?

ltstanfo · 11-18-2006, 09:25 PM

Hello,

I am new to this forum and this is my first post.

One of the local gun shops here in town has a very good condition 1914 marked artillery Luger (I believe, it is an 8" barrel) that has no rear sight. The rear sight base has been filled in with a piece of machined metal (in the white) and the manufacturer's mark has been (mostly) removed from the toggle (there are faint lines that I think may correspond to the Erfurt crown). All parts match except for the magazine.

The shop owner thinks that this may be an "Armistice Luger" (I have never heard of such). Any ideas anyone? I am interested in purchasing this for my collection but am hesitant. If this is real, any ideas as to pricing? He seems to think it may be in the $2500 range.

Oh yeah, the bluing is good / very good, I would estimate NRA 80-85 percent.

Thank you,
Ltstanfo

Edward Tinker · 11-18-2006, 11:37 PM

welcome to the forum. I have never heard Armistice luger, I am assuming he means one that was modified after the war. Usuaully this meant cutting the barrel to 4 inches. Then after WW1 they sold a lot to the USA, sometimes modifying them, sometimes just selling as is.

In the condition you mention, I would not pay over $700-$800 for it, as it has been modified too much to be a collectable to me....

You can pick up a reasonable artillery for $2500 that still has a rear sight and correct markings.

Ed

ltstanfo · 11-19-2006, 11:22 AM

Edward,

Thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate the help. Have you ever heard of anyone tapping in a piece of machined metal in the manner I have described (the metal has been milled / machined to perfectly fit into the rear sight base and is flush with the top to give a clean appearence)?

I may offer something in the price range you have suggested. If nothing else, it might make an interesting shooter.

Thanks again,
Ltstanfo

Brent B. · 11-19-2006, 03:17 PM

If you're looking for an artillery I would check the various gun sites such as Gun Broker, Auction Arms, Guns America and also make a post here on the forum about "wanting to buy". Myself, I would stay away from the one at your local gun shop as you'll likely never get your money back when you would go to resell it. Just my 2 cents. Brent B.

Hugh · 11-19-2006, 07:28 PM

I agree that the gun in the condition you describe is not worth over +-$700. It has apparantly been heavily buffed before rebluing if the toggle mark is almost gone. The arty rear sight will cost around $250 if you can find one to put on it. For $2500 you can find a decent one that hasn't been refinished and has the original rear sight.

micmacman · 11-19-2006, 08:16 PM

whats the differance between a artillery Luger and a standard P08

John Sabato · 11-19-2006, 10:37 PM

A "standard" P.08 has a 4 inch barrel and the rear sight is non-adjustable and mounted on the rear toggle...

An artillery Luger has an eight inch barrel and the rear sight is adjustable and is mounted in a large base in a dovetail at the rear of the barrel. Go to the member gallery and you will find many photographs where you can locate each type and see the differences for yourself...

micmacman · 11-19-2006, 10:52 PM

thank you very much John,and will do

ltstanfo · 11-19-2006, 11:07 PM

My thanks to everyone that has offered help / comments. I have one last set of questions relating to this particular P08 and then I will likely leave it alone.

I finally managed to track down a book on Lugers called "Luger Tips - Revised Edition" by Michael Reese II. It is published by Pioneer Press in Union City in Tennessee with a copyright date of 1976 (revised is 1992).

On page 59 the topic is "Long Barreled Lugers" and there is talk of a "1920 Model". What caught my attention was a few paragraphs near the bottom of the first column:

"The 1920 Commercial models were assembled from previous years production, some of which were reworked." Further down it states, "Some of the original adjustable rear sights were removed from the carbine barrels and the Naval toggles were used which had the 100/200-meter adjustable sights." Further down it goes on, "As to the exact proofmarks to look for on these 1920/1923 models, it is hard to say. Being reworks they will have military proofs along with the new "Crown N" proof." Finally, "Commercials will have the DWM crest / trademark, although a few have been seen with a blank toggle. These could have been parts toggles from the Erfurt factory buffed off or the DWM machinist was instructed not to press the trademark on same. Most of these long barrels were for commercial/export to the U.S. 90% will have the words "Germany" stamped on the barrel or frame.

I will recheck the Lugar tomorrow on my lunch break to see if any of this might correspond. Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Ltstanfo

ltstanfo · 11-26-2006, 04:45 PM

As a final reply to this post, I did in fact go back and check out the Luger in question. Based on the data from the book I mentioned previously, I was able to account for everything on the pistol in question ("GERMANY" stamped on the frame, a British tonnage number on the bottom of the barrel) EXCEPT for a crown N proof. As such, I passed on the gun, even though the shop offerred a hefty discount.

What I got instead was a very nice 1917 DWM artillery model! All parts (even the magazine) are matched and the gun is in NRA 90% (or so) condition.

Apparently all the Lugers being offerred are from the collection of a man who took a job up in New York and didn't want to mess with the hassle of taking his firearms with him.

Thanks again everyone!

Regards,
Ltstanfo

11-18-2006, 09:25 PM	#1
ltstanfo New User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1914 Artillery Luger Missing Rear Sight? Hello, I am new to this forum and this is my first post. One of the local gun shops here in town has a very good condition 1914 marked artillery Luger (I believe, it is an 8" barrel) that has no rear sight. The rear sight base has been filled in with a piece of machined metal (in the white) and the manufacturer's mark has been (mostly) removed from the toggle (there are faint lines that I think may correspond to the Erfurt crown). All parts match except for the magazine. The shop owner thinks that this may be an "Armistice Luger" (I have never heard of such). Any ideas anyone? I am interested in purchasing this for my collection but am hesitant. If this is real, any ideas as to pricing? He seems to think it may be in the $2500 range. Oh yeah, the bluing is good / very good, I would estimate NRA 80-85 percent. Thank you, Ltstanfo __________________ Living in the great state of Alabama where gun control is hitting what you aim at.

11-18-2006, 11:37 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	welcome to the forum. I have never heard Armistice luger, I am assuming he means one that was modified after the war. Usuaully this meant cutting the barrel to 4 inches. Then after WW1 they sold a lot to the USA, sometimes modifying them, sometimes just selling as is. In the condition you mention, I would not pay over $700-$800 for it, as it has been modified too much to be a collectable to me.... You can pick up a reasonable artillery for $2500 that still has a rear sight and correct markings. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-19-2006, 11:22 AM	#3
ltstanfo New User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Edward, Thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate the help. Have you ever heard of anyone tapping in a piece of machined metal in the manner I have described (the metal has been milled / machined to perfectly fit into the rear sight base and is flush with the top to give a clean appearence)? I may offer something in the price range you have suggested. If nothing else, it might make an interesting shooter. Thanks again, Ltstanfo __________________ Living in the great state of Alabama where gun control is hitting what you aim at.

11-19-2006, 07:28 PM	#5
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I agree that the gun in the condition you describe is not worth over +-$700. It has apparantly been heavily buffed before rebluing if the toggle mark is almost gone. The arty rear sight will cost around $250 if you can find one to put on it. For $2500 you can find a decent one that hasn't been refinished and has the original rear sight. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

11-19-2006, 08:16 PM	#6
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	whats the differance between a artillery Luger and a standard P08 __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-19-2006, 03:17 PM	#4
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If you're looking for an artillery I would check the various gun sites such as Gun Broker, Auction Arms, Guns America and also make a post here on the forum about "wanting to buy". Myself, I would stay away from the one at your local gun shop as you'll likely never get your money back when you would go to resell it. Just my 2 cents. Brent B.

11-19-2006, 10:37 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	A "standard" P.08 has a 4 inch barrel and the rear sight is non-adjustable and mounted on the rear toggle... An artillery Luger has an eight inch barrel and the rear sight is adjustable and is mounted in a large base in a dovetail at the rear of the barrel. Go to the member gallery and you will find many photographs where you can locate each type and see the differences for yourself... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-19-2006, 10:52 PM	#8
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thank you very much John,and will do __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-19-2006, 11:07 PM	#9
ltstanfo New User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My thanks to everyone that has offered help / comments. I have one last set of questions relating to this particular P08 and then I will likely leave it alone. I finally managed to track down a book on Lugers called "Luger Tips - Revised Edition" by Michael Reese II. It is published by Pioneer Press in Union City in Tennessee with a copyright date of 1976 (revised is 1992). On page 59 the topic is "Long Barreled Lugers" and there is talk of a "1920 Model". What caught my attention was a few paragraphs near the bottom of the first column: "The 1920 Commercial models were assembled from previous years production, some of which were reworked." Further down it states, "Some of the original adjustable rear sights were removed from the carbine barrels and the Naval toggles were used which had the 100/200-meter adjustable sights." Further down it goes on, "As to the exact proofmarks to look for on these 1920/1923 models, it is hard to say. Being reworks they will have military proofs along with the new "Crown N" proof." Finally, "Commercials will have the DWM crest / trademark, although a few have been seen with a blank toggle. These could have been parts toggles from the Erfurt factory buffed off or the DWM machinist was instructed not to press the trademark on same. Most of these long barrels were for commercial/export to the U.S. 90% will have the words "Germany" stamped on the barrel or frame. I will recheck the Lugar tomorrow on my lunch break to see if any of this might correspond. Any thoughts? Thank you, Ltstanfo __________________ Living in the great state of Alabama where gun control is hitting what you aim at.

11-26-2006, 04:45 PM	#10
ltstanfo New User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As a final reply to this post, I did in fact go back and check out the Luger in question. Based on the data from the book I mentioned previously, I was able to account for everything on the pistol in question ("GERMANY" stamped on the frame, a British tonnage number on the bottom of the barrel) EXCEPT for a crown N proof. As such, I passed on the gun, even though the shop offerred a hefty discount. What I got instead was a very nice 1917 DWM artillery model! All parts (even the magazine) are matched and the gun is in NRA 90% (or so) condition. Apparently all the Lugers being offerred are from the collection of a man who took a job up in New York and didn't want to mess with the hassle of taking his firearms with him. Thanks again everyone! Regards, Ltstanfo __________________ Living in the great state of Alabama where gun control is hitting what you aim at.