1918 Erfurt

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

I got another SOE-Luger (Special Operations Executive) today, an Erfurt 1918. All matching apart from the magazine. Not much finish left and a good deal of rust pitting; mechanically it appears OK. Serial # 77XX O(?). Does anybody have any information about the markings or the gun itself?

Balder

[Edward Tinker]

Balder, the markings I see are, Erfurt, date and acceptance and proofs. The Crown RC is discussed in the FAQ in the New Collectors area. The accetpance and proofs might be special ones to someone else, they look normal to me...

ed

[Jan C Still]

Balder
As Ed said the proof and acceptance stamps are normal 1918 Erfurt.
Translated they are C/RC B D(or O?) P Erfurt style test proof.
Jan

[Steinar]

Was it common for the SOE organization to use german pistols? I know the founder loved his broom, but Lugers..

[Edward Tinker]

So, I have never heard of SOE, assumed it was a joke... What is it, and unless they were marked a certain way, or there were detailed by serial number listings of guns, you would know it belonged to "SOE"???

[Steinar]

Ed, in short.. Special Operations Executive (SOE) was founded by Winston Churchill and Hugh Dalton. And was a WW2 organization that conducted warfare by other means than direct military engagement..

[Balder]

The SOE was formed in the UK in July 1940, after an initiative taken by Winston Spencer Churchill. It was basically a fusion of three unpublicized organizations; section D of the Secret Intelligence Service (SIS or MI6), the EH/CS branch of the Foreign Office and the GS(R) research group of the War Office.

The prime task of the organization was to stage and supply warfare against the enemy in countries occupied by him - one of them being Norway. Of course they needed guns to get these operations underway. The Brits found themselves in desperate need of handguns when war broke out in September 1939, this need was further enhanced by the Dunquerque disaster/miracle in the summer of 1940 where they lost maybe as much as 75% of their guns. As a result, the SOE operatives sent into enemy-occupied countries were equipped with whatever guns at hand - including German ones which in many cases had been captured during WW1. The term "SOE-guns" I came up with myself some years ago when I was doing post-graduate studies. I am currently working on a ph.d. in history, dealing with some specific SOE operations in Norway.

I now have two SOE-Lugers, the other one is a 1911 DWM brought into Norway by an SOE operative on the west coast. This Erfurt came to Norway in the same manner, brought here by a highly decorated naval officer known as "Shetlands-Larsen".

My late father was in charge of an SOE/Linge Company operation in 1943-45. In the operational papers that I found at the Public Records Office in London during one of my research trips, I also found the list of their equipment. This operation of four members carried no less than eight pistols: two .45 Colts, two Lugers and four .32 caliber German pistols as personal sidearms. Since my father was in charge he was allowed to pick his own, he chose a Walther PPK (which is now in my possession). The other three members of the operation were issued M1914/M1934 Mausers. The whereabouts of the two Lugers they brought is not known today, unfortunately.

Regards,

Balder

PS Edit: I forgot to ask about the slot on the chamber. Somebody told me that it had something to do with artillery Lugers. Is this correct?

[Jan C Still]

Balder
Interesting information!

Most 1917 and 1918 dated Erfurts (P08) have this slot or cut, which is to accomodate a tangent sight (the tangent sight is used only on the LP08). As Erfurt did not make the LP08 in 1917 and 1918, it a puzzel why they included this tangent sight cut.
Jan

[reich1900]

I find this a very interesting post and I also haven't heard of the Special Operations Executive (SOE). Were any of their pistols marked in any special way? I have a 1918 Erfurt and was wondering maybe I have something rare? But I'm not counting on it. HA!HA!
Bernie

[John D.]

This is an interesting thread to me as well..! However - in matching your proofs to my 1918 Erfurt, I don't see any differences, as Ed and Jan have stated - including the receiver cut for the artillery version... As well - until this thread, I'd never heard of SOE..

Best to you,

John D.

[Tomathvl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ions_Executive

[Balder]

Originally posted by reich1900
Were any of their pistols marked in any special way? I have a 1918 Erfurt and was wondering maybe I have something rare? But I'm not counting on it. HA!HA!
Bernie

For some reason, none of the German-made SOE-guns I've seen have had any British markings at all. The Brits were eager to proof-mark allied guns, at least until 1944. My M1928 Thompson has the broad arrow as well as various inspectors' stamps, my father's M1911A1 also. But not his M1-carbine that came in a parachute drop late 1944/early 1945. As for not marking the German guns, I can see at least one good reason - if the SOE-agent was captured carrying a British marked German gun, it would give away the fact that this gun was supplied from the UK. It wouldn't really mean much to the agent in question, he'd most likely be executed anyway; but I believe that the Brits didn't want to let the Germans know that they had a store of German guns, nor did they want to reveal that they were being supplied to Norway and other occupied countries. This is one of several WW2/SOE issues I am currently looking into.

As for the recently acquired 1918 Erfurt, I posted it here just to check with the Luger Gurus if the markings were common for such a Luger - I didn't expect it to be anything special. Thanks for all of your inputs.

Regards,

Balder

[jkirkthomas]

Just in case anyone is interested, there is (or was in the early 80's) an SOE Club in London. Balder, I'm sure you must know about it. To be member, you have to have been part of the SOE or SAS, and maybe the LRDG are also eligible. I once spent an evening there as guest of an SAS Sergeant-Major. My SF team had spent some time with the SAS that summer, and before we left for home the SGM took a few of us over for drinks and conversation. While there, I met a couple of ladies who had been radio operators who parachuted into occupied France during WWII to assist the Maquis. It had been almost 40 years since the end of the war and these ladies looked like your average grandmother, but they definitely had the right stuff. It was an honor to share a drink with them. And the SAS chaps I knew were right up there with the best - we held our own with them, but it was a struggle. Those boys are serious about what they do, and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Just thought I'd share that.

Kirk

[Edward Tinker]

Kirk, welcome to the forum and thanks for serving our country,



Ed

[Balder]

Originally posted by jkirkthomas
Just in case anyone is interested, there is (or was in the early 80's) an SOE Club in London. Balder, I'm sure you must know about it.

Kirk

Kirk,

I guess you mean the Special Forces Club in Herbert Crescent, London; I've never been there. The Norwegian "Linge-klubben", its counterpart here, was actually dissolved last year due to the members' age. It consisted of surviving members of "Norwegian Independent Company No. 1", AKA the "Linge Company" after its founder Martin Linge. They still get together though. They used to have an annual assembly with shooting competitions up until the 1990's - these gentlemen had not forgotten their wartime skills. Too bad that the lessons from WW2 seem to be rapidly and wilfully erased from the collective western mind.

The picture shows some seemingly merry members of the Linge Company/SOE operation "Feather II" in 1944 with some of their guns. The gentleman on the left is holding a Luger and an M1911A1 (or an M1903 Colt, hard to tell) in addition to the Krag-J�¸rgensen M1894 rifle resting on his knee. Also present are an M1928 Thompson and a second Krag-J�¸rgensen - and a bottle of wine on the table.

Respectfully,

Balder