1900 Luger

[Silvano]

I Have SN 7138 no "Germany" mark and TD lever is numbered military style on flat. All matching except trigger #34 and holster closure post mark on "right" grip. It has been suggested that it is possible that this is a US Test piece, as about 10% (about 100 guns) may have been supplied from beyond the normal range to make up for manufacturing defects. Also many US Test pistols that actually saw field testing were returned with many mismatched pieces, to check interchangeablity of parts. Lastly the closure post mark on the "right" grip rather than the left, may have been made by the "Powell" holster. I realize this may be a somewhat fantastical story, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, and can direct me toward substantiating any of it, I'd appreciate it.

[Johnny Peppers]

Supposedly serial number 7147 was the highest serial number listed on Bannerman's sales receipt from the US Government. The no GERMANY marking is not a good indicator of a US trials pistol as pistols right up to almost serial number 8000 do not have this marking. I have no explaination for this as pistols in the high 5000 range have it, and then starting at the trials pistols serial number range at approximately 6000 there is no GERMANY stamp. Maybe DWM was anticipating additional orders. I am not aware of any interchaneability tests with the pistols, as the parts were serial numbered to allow the parts to remain together.

[bill m]

Hi,

What I have heard about these last 100 guns was that they were called the second delivery. The first was 900 and the second was 100. It was always thought that these 1000 test pieces were consectutively numbered, but now some are disputing this. What I have heard, and was told, as I have 7735, which is one of these so called second delivery pieces, is that ONLY the test guns were not marked Germany, had no proofs, and had the last two digits on the left side of the takedown lever on the flat outside part, not on the right round, or left underside. I have spoken to quite a few collectors that told me that ONLY the test pieces had no Germany and when you saw on without Germany around these serial number, it was probably a test piece. I think there is a couple higher than mine, 7735, in the high 7000 range and possibly even on in the real low 8000 range. Personally, I think they are a test piece, but there are a lot of collectors that do not agree.

Silvano, I'd suggest that you post photo of your M1900AE on this sight for further comment. The marks on your left grip are consistent with this type of holster shown on pages 524-526 of Bender's "Luger Holster & Accessories".

[Johnny Peppers]

Serial number 7976 is recorded as no GERMANY, and no proofs, and number 7990 is recorded as with GERMANY but no notation as to proofs. There was no rhyme or reason to the proofs on the 1900 Model, and no proof is very common all throughout production. Also the takedown numbered on the flat is very consistent up into the 7800 range.

[bill m]

Hi JP,

I'm not that knowledgeable on the commercial guns, as Mausers are more what I understand. So, if I understand you correctly, No Germany, No Proofs, and the last two digits on the left outside flat of the take-down, do not really mean anything other than it is different from the established test Lugers that are recognized -- 6100 to 7100 range roughly? Is there any actual proof or documentation that there were 2 delivery's with 900 and 100 as stated by Kenyon in the book "Luger, The Multi-Nation Pistol"? He shows a picture of one of these and stated that they are test pieces? I believe he also wrote an article in "Gun Report" on these same ones. The guys that I have visited with have told me that only the test guns were not marked Germany. Is this correct? That was unique to only the test guns in this approximate serial range. Also, the lack of Germany and the unique takedown serial number placement was another unique characteristic only found on the last 100 test pieces. Has anyone seen any that were not marked Germany in the 5000 range and the 8000 range? These are a very controversial patch of Lugers and whether they are actually test pieces will be debated a lot longer until more information is discovered. What do you think?

[John Sabato]

[Johnny Peppers]

Bill,

We never know what will eventually turn up in the National Archives, but so far there are several different theories on the Model 1900 Test Trials pistols. There is suppose to be records from the Bureau of Accounting that the serial number range of the pistols was from 6099 to 7098. It is known how many and to whom the test pistols were issued, and it may be a matter of finding a document that details the serial numbers issued to the various military outfits.

The first number that I have recorded that would be just out of the accepted range is 6009 which has no GERMANY but the takedown is not noted. The next pistol is 6018 and it has no GERMANY and the takedown is numbered on the round. More mystery. From there all the way to 7976 there is no Model 1900 noted with GERMANY. This list is just a sampling of the pistols between the noted serial numbers, but does contain approximately 300 numbers.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


There were indeed two separate deliveries for 1900 Test Lugers. The first shipment of 800 Lugers was received on October 26, 1900 (at Governor Island, New York), and the second shipment was received (also at Governor Island, New York) on October 29, 1900.


In terms of serial numbers, Michael Reese II, in his â??1900 Luger U.S. Test Trialsâ?�, writes, â??Evidence received from the Bureau of Accounting sets the serial number range of the 1,000 test pieces at 6099 - 7098.â?� Given the amount of primary source material he included in his work, Iâ??m inclined to accept his serial number range.


The defining characteristics of the 1900 US Army Test Trail Lugers are these:

Barrel of 4.75 inches.

Chambered for the 7.65 mm Parabellum.

Great Seal of the US over the chamber.

Serial numbered in the commercial style, save for the number on the take down latch, which is on the rounded stub of the take down latch and visible from the right side of the pistol.

â??Flaming Bombâ?� DWM inspection stamp on the bottom of the barrel extension, in front of the recoil lug,


Additionally, the 1900 Test Lugers should *not* be stamped â??Germanyâ?�, or have *any* proof marks.


All of these characteristics (both those that should be present and those that should not) are important. The 1900 Test Luger is one of the more commonly counterfeited Lugers, using Commercial Lugers of the same time period. Folks - be very careful if offered a Test Luger - if it does not meet the above profile it is likely a forgery.

Best regards,

Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Most of the other features have already been covered, but the "flaming bomb" DWM proof was in use before the serial number range of the 1000 test pistols and as with the other features is no guarantee of a pistol being an actual test pistol.

The only test pistols identified by serial number from government records are 6167, 6196, 6282, 6361, 6541, 6601, 6602, 6885, and 7018 which were documented as being issued for testing.

[Silvano]

Johnny,

Thanks for the information, and your interest. You mention a "list" of about 300 guns. Where is this list?

[Silvano]

Hello Kyrie.

Thanks for your interest as well. This gun was not sold to me as a test luger. The gun is all matching except for the trigger which is off by only 4 digits (#34). The wear on the strawing, and the amount of lite frekling troughout all the strawed parts is very consistent, suggesting that this trigger has been with the gun most of it's life. Why would a commercial gun only have a mismatched trigger? The gun is about 96% original finish, and is worn consistent to holster wear including a closure post mark on the "right" grip. Why would a commercial gun have so much holster wear? This gun raises questions. Thanks again for your imput.

I'm with Kyrie all the way. Many fakes exist in the 1900 test model.

I have 1900 American Eagle serial 13700. The Luger is 97% plus overall. I was happy to purchase it instead of a 1900 test Eagle since most legitimate test pieces are in such poor condition. If you see a test piece in 95% plus condition, be extremely careful. Remember that test Lugers were just that, test Lugers and usually show signs of much use & wear.

JV

[bill m]

Hi,

Whether one accepts these as test Lugers or not, they most certainly are not counterfiets. They are a unique lot, all with the same characteristics, and scattered up to the 8000 serial number range. Like always, the last two digits on the left flat side of the take-down has some meaning and is unique for some reason. I do not know the answer, but some will say that these are the characteristics of the second lot of test Lugers. There are enough of them known, that they have to be some sort of special contract, at least in my opinion. Also, outside of the old "Reese" list, 6100 to 7100 roughly, and the serial numbers that Bannerman bought, there is no other data to suggest that they are not test pieces to my knowledge.

[Johnny Peppers]

The list is virtually all early Lugers up through the 1914 Commercials that have been compiled by myself and friends over the past thirty years. Many have come from books, lists, periodicals, and many from personal observations.

For anyone else looking for a non-test M1900 American Eagle luger, see my recent ad in the classified. Tom h.

[Kyrie]

Hi Silvano,


Youâ??re very welcome


Permit me to pose some things to consider....


A commercial Luger may have a mismatched trigger for the same reason a military Luger has a mismatched trigger; the original trigger was broken and replaced by the owner here in the US. That trigger appears to be off by only four numbers may be pure appearance - it may be off by more than several thousand numbers. Commercial pistols (including but not limited to Lugers) develop holster wear from being carried in a holster; civilians carry pistols too. Finally, the take down latch with the correct number in an incorrect place may indicate it is a replacement taken from another Luger that just happened to have the same last two digits in its serial number.


Purely in my opinion, there really arenâ??t any questions here. Itâ??s just a mismatched Luger, like so many Lugers. While itâ??s fun to speculate and spin â??what ifsâ?�, the reality is usually pretty commonplace. As example of this, take a look at the pictures of the 1916 Erfurt in the Ownerâ??s Corner under my name. This one has an unmarked 7.65 mm Para barrel, and the mechanical and cosmetic condition of the barrel is consistent with the mechanical and cosmetic condition of the rest of the Luger. While it would be easy to build a line of interesting speculation based on the similar condition of barrel and pistol and conclude the barrel is original, the most likely explanation is someone here in the States swapped the original 9 mm Para barrel for the 7.65 Para barrel for reasons we will never know.


Collectors are frequently their own worst enemy. When a collector really *wants* to believe a Luger is something other than what its physical characteristics indicate he may begin rationalizing away the undesirable characteristics. The degree to which he is successful in convincing himself the pistol isnâ??t what it really is determines how much too much he is going to spend on it


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Itâ??s less a case of â??...there is no other data to suggest that they are not test pieces...â?� than it is a case of â??There is no data to suggest that they are test pieces - just wishful thinking on the part of the owners.â?�


That said, there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking - itâ??s a wonderful pastime. But collectors need to be careful not to let wishful thinking creep into economic decisions


Best regards,


Kyrie

[bill m]

Hi,

Ron Wood wrote a great article in Auto Mag on this subject in April of 1998. In it he gives the serial numbers of what he has recored in 20 years of collecting data. There is a below range from Reese's list, and an above range. All of these Lugers have the characteristics of the test pieces. The below range consisted of # 6068 and 6070 -- the above range consisted of # 7115,7147 (which is in Bannermans list as a test gun),7163,7241,7247, 7304,7319,7334,7346,7465,7469,7474,7506,7620,7659,7735(my gun),and 7823.


His comments were, "I am guessing that the below range examples were pre-test samples for approval, and the above range pieces were replacements for original test pieces that were lost or damaged beyond repair".


If this information is correct, it would indicate that THESE ARE TEST PIECES, and not just wishful thinking.


Anyway, there was 2 below the range and 17 above the range, with 7147 being stated as a test piece from Bannerman. There were 198 in the 6100 to 7100 range. I feel these are test pieces, but you will have to make up your own mind. I'm sure this list has grown since then. This list had 217 total on it out of the supposedly 1000 examples.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


DWM did, in fact, provide two Lugers, with 2,000 rounds of ammunition, prior to the contract for 1,000 test Lugers. These two initial Lugers were the basis upon which the 1,000 Lugers were purchased for the trials. There is documentary evidence that 1,000 Lugers were purchased, and we know from primary source documents where all of these 1,000 Lugers were sent for examination and trial. There is no evidence of any kind that there were more than 1,000 trial Lugers, or that DWM supplied replacements for any Lugers that failed in service. There is primary source evidence that Lugers did fail, and were destroyed by the Army rather than exchanged. There is also evidence that the Army exchanged 50 of the 1,000 Lugers (all in very good or better condition) for 50 other Lugers in 9 mm Parabellum.


Itâ??s now been over one hundred years since the Test Trials - thatâ??s time for any number of very persuasive forgeries to be produced. My best advice to anyone offered an â??Army Trials Lugerâ?� that does not fall into the known serial number range is to proceed with the greatest of caution. It is wise, when investing in a rare and expensive Luger, to leave oneâ??s optimism at home ;-)


Best regards,


Kyrie