DWM Luger

Today I purchased a DWM Luger that was labeled as 'sneak'. I was told that this was produced in Germnay before WWII when there were still weapons restrictions. There's no date marked on the gun, and it has some symbols, I'm guessing they're DWM proof marks (I don't remember exactly what they look like). It also has the DWM logo on the top of the gun. All the SN's match, the gun is in great shape. My question is...is this a German luger? Was it a good purchase (for shooting, not for collecting)? If not I can still cancel the purchase...


--Kyle

Hello, I'm no expert, but maybe you could consider the following things:


1. How much? More than $500.... Not a wonderful deal where I live for a shooter. $400, not bad for a shooter, less for a shooter starts to get more ok, .


2. Look at the markings again and compare to the info on this site. Good hints and tips are in the tech info section, it helped me.


3. How bad do you want it? That makes it worth more or less to me in my decision...


Best of luck,


Ed

It was something like $850. Again, in excellent condition. (No scratches or scuff marks etc etc). Yes, I'd very much like a Luger. I've yet to see a Luger in my area (So Cal) even at gun shows or shops for less than $800, and most of those weren't even matched. Even the grips look barely touched. I'm not really in it for the collectors value. I'd like to be able to shoot it, but I'd like all the parts to be matched, and basically untouched. So, I want a nice looking and fucntioning, German Luger, with matched numbers, from a reputable store. I've never had so much as an ounce of trouble from this store. Basically what I'm asking, is, is this a good *quality* Luger, is it German, and..well, that's it. Thanks.

Your best bet is the technical information right here. But.. You need to know, is it a matching numbered Luger? (magazine does not usually match). If not matching, then it is a definate shooter, like mine. And price goes down... If they match you can still shoot it, but you might worry more. The price might be fine in S. Cal, but seems high to me for a shooter, probably OK price for a collector, but I know it really depends on the collectability of the gun. As an example, my Artillery is in beautiful shape, but that is because it has been reblued, I bought it 18 years ago for $300 and two years ago, I was showing it to a gun shop owner and he only offered me $300 for it! It is worth more, but since it is a shooter in most peoples eyes, not worth as much.


Things to keep in mind,; Are the numbers, markings, etc., all sharp or are they blurred, such as being ground down to clean it up and re-blue it. If it is matching numbers, it could be worth more, and depending on rarity, worth even more. It is very hard to say without specifics and prices would have to be discussed with someone knowledagable. Like many things, the going price might be more in your area.


In the classifieds are Lugers for sale, nice re-blued, shooters that Ted Heller has for sale. (Let alone others, I've e-mailed him and he seems like a good sort of guy). He would be able to tell you how to contact for shipping FFL, etc.


That are literally tens of thousands of Lugers out there for you to buy, so keeping an eye out is what you need to do, unless you've set your heart on this one, and I know how that feeling goes...


ed

Well, hrm, the numbers are clear, and it hasn't been reblued. I think I'll just keep it. It's in excellent condition. Again, collecting is not why I'm buying it. I've seen Lugers labeled as 'sneak' on some websites going for $1100, so I think I'll keep it. Thanks for the help. When I get it I'll post. (Note: my definition of a 'shooter' is maybe ~10 round through it every once in awhile, if I wanna waste ammo, I have an SKS


--Kyle

[Thor]

Kyle, to be a sneak there are a couple of things to look for, the subscript on the frame of the serial number should be in the r, s, t, or u range. The barrel band (front sight band of the barrel) should be a sharp step (Mauser production) similar to those of a K date Luger. Is the inside of the reciever and frame in the white steel or blued, is the safety area marking (Gesichert) painted in an Off white color? Is there any wear at all on the side of the muzzle or sideplate or the front of the frame rails?

Is the muzzle polished to a matt finish or is it blue. Does the firing pin and hold open device have the same two digit serial as the rest of the gun? Just a few things to look at to see if it truly is an original sneak with an original finish. At the price you paid I would be very suspect if it is over 96% that you got an original gun. But at the price you paid it is about twice what a shooter is worth. I once bought a very nice commercial Luger that I suspected had been reworked by a master. I paid a lot of money for it but it is so beautiful I decided it was worth it to me. Are all the small parts strawed (gold color or tarnished silver if faded), does the gun have in import mark on the bottom of the frame rail right side, or bottomof the barrel or side of the frame, rear right side. Just a few things to consider if you want todetermine the guns value. ~Thor~

[Johnny Peppers]

Without a description of the pistol's markings it is hard to guess what it is, but could very well be a DWM commercial.

I have a chance to purchase a 1900 Swiss, 2nd model safety, 95% blue 90% straw, area under safety polished bright as are the interior surfaces, grips 97% sn 26xx. How can you tell if it is a Swiss reblue? I know some were originally blued in Switzerland after being delivered from DWM in the white and that most were at sometime refinished there to a near perfect finish. Also, How doe you tell if this particular pistol is in the military contract range or the commercial Swiss range?? What are approx. values as I havn't seen to many 1900 Swiss for sale recently. Any and info is appreciated! JJV

[bill m]

Hi Ted,

I would like to add to the information that you provided. The "sneak" Lugers are usually found in the T and U blocks, with very few in the Q, R, and S blocks.


The barrel bands are a mixed lot with no exact, for sure characteristics. A lot of the Q. R, and S blocks have been reworked and have a new barrel added. For instance the TP proofed barrels and they have a round barrel band. Also, the later "sneaks" in the U block have rounded barrel bands.


The rear connecting pin, holdopen, and firing pin are seldom ever numbered on these. There are a few exceptions, depending on how much the gun was reworked, but usually these are blank.


There are numberous variations of the "sneak" which all have somewhat different characteristics. Blank toggle with commercial serial number placement, Blank toggle with military serial number placement, DWM with commercial serial numbers placement, DWM with military serial number placement, and Lugers with only commercial proofs, and Lugers with both commercial and military proofs. I have never seen a Q, R or S block "sneak" with military proofs.


The "sneak" Luger is a very interesting variation and has may different variations amoung itself. They are hard to find and if in good condition do have collector value. They are not a common everyday run of the mill variation. A very intersting model that in my opinion has been overlooked by collectors and has a world of history and research to be done on them. To actually make a judement on this gun, one needs the serial number, serial number placement, all proof marks, and whether it has a sear safety or magazine safety. If in excellent condition, the price does not sound out of line in my opinion.

[SteveM]

Use the search on this website for past posts and you will find more info on these.(Sneaks)


SteveM

[David Jackson]

On the 1900 Swiss; do you have access to the Parabellum book by Bobba? That tells a lot about the guns; sounds as though you might.

I have a minty 1900 Commercial Swiss (except for one ding on the trigger guard)with like new period holster. I had it on the market for $5,000 and had interest but I did not get a sale.

The little booklet by Aaron Davis has values for Commercials up to $10,000 and for Military guns up to $5,000. In my view those are fantasy values. Have you checked Simpsom Ltd. and Shattuck's site?

Bobba's book and also a monograph by Datig talk about some guns being shipped in the white to Switzerland. I have been given to understand that as a matter of course Swiss gun owners have their guns refinished from time to time.

Hopefully, more knowledgeable folks will chip in also.

From the info you provide, it could be a 9mm commercial common here in the US or it could be a German "sneak". Both were made in Germany and look quite similar. Theinformation provided about the details a sneak has is important and accurate so check out your pistol. The price of $850 is low for a collector grade (all orig parts including all "matched" serialized parts), high for a luger with replaced parts, and a little high for a 9mm commercial from the 1920s. The suffix letter is an important and easy first check.


If you shoot it, put replacement grips on it first. The originals are old, fragile and chipping or cracking one (which is serialized to your gun, by the way) will slam the value by $400. Replacements are available for $30 and easy to put on and take off. Use a modern mag, too, and you can avoid dropping and denting/chipping the original magazine (which is worth $80 or more).


These steps should greatly reduce any risk of serious damage to your luger during the few sessions you shoot it.


Enjoy your luger but make sure the seller did not feed you a line as the price is a bit perplexing.


DM

Thanks David,

The safety on this pistol confuses me. It is a second type and the Luger is in the 26xx serial range. Walter's book states that if it is part of the military contract it should have the fluted style safety lever. Would this indicate that this one is commercial?? What else should I look for on the gun? Any more info greatly appreciated.

JJV

[Johnny Peppers]

More left side grips have been chipped by taking them off than by shooting the pistol with the grips on. Be very carful in removing the left side grip as it is partially captured under the safety lever. The grip must be raised just enough to clear the frame, and then slid down and out from under the safety. The .45 Luger featured in Guns and Ammo has this same chip out of it.

JJV, The 2nd issue safety lever is correct on your M1900 Swiss in this serial number range. If Swiss military accepted, it will have a Swiss cross on the left receiver over the initial of the Swiss military inspector (eg: V for Volgesang). For more details see "Lugers at Random" pages 54 & 55.

[bill m]

Hi DM,

The grips on "sneak" Lugers in the Q, R, S, T, and U blocks are usually not number. They are totally blank most of the time. It would be very unual to find one with numbered grips and would indicate to me that they were replaced at some time, or the Luger had more reworking done to it when it was converted to a police gun, but almost all of these are blank also.

Thanks Tom,

How do I tell if it is a Swiss refinish?? From what I understand, they duplicated the original DWM finish almost Perfectly.

JJV

Sometimes it is difficult to tell an arsenal refinish from the original DWM rust blue, but most usually some of the markings will appear "soft", stretched out or partially buffed away. Tom

[G.T.]

Hi Tom! I have heard that Swiss military pistols from all periods were refinished to like new condition before release for public sale...would this be true, or is this just a bobcat story? I have not heard of, or seen to many ugly Swiss Lugers....till....later....G.T.

J Peppers makes an important point about grips--watch out when removing the left grip--be sure to slide it downward on removal to avoid chipping. I gently push out each grip from the inside bottom with my finger. Holding the pistol upright enables gravity to work with you and the grip falls downward and pops out.


Bill--I am glad to hear the 20's commercials are usually unnumbered under the grips. I don't have a 20's DWM to know this but have seen lots of unmarked grips. I did not know if these were original or replacements of the 1930s and 40s. Were ANY 20s DWM lugers numbered under the grips? If so, I want to know if they had the small or large (Mauser-like) digits.


thanks,

dave