Side frame Krieghoff

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:14 AM

Hi,

I have found this luger two years ago, in a family who didn't collect arms and militaria. The gun and the magazine are originals at 100%. I have found photos wich look like to my model except some dÃ?Â©tails. My gun has got 5 figures in the serial number and has not a " P" letter. I have seen in a book of Jan C. STILL that only 5 exemplaries are know in this serial number in the world. Is it correct? Could you tell me the value of this gun ?
In advance I thank you very much for your answer.

I have joined photos to this message

Jo-08

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:24 AM

Another photo

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:27 AM

another photo

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:29 AM

another photo

Ron Smith · 06-10-2007, 11:30 AM

Fenninger,

John D (forum owner) recently had one posted for sale at $10,000. It has been sold, however at an unknown price. My understanding is that Luger values in Europe are somewhat lower than in the U.S.

Ron

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:31 AM

another photo

jo-08 · 06-10-2007, 11:38 AM

another photo

Edward Tinker · 06-10-2007, 11:47 AM

Although John's was a sideframe marking, it is kind of apples and oranges; http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=17151

As Johns is a P code, and is in better shape. Not to say that "fenninger" 's is not valuable, I am sure it is.

I'd want it checked out by someone who knows Krieghoffs really well, that it matches, etc.

PS: Sn 22728 does NOT flow in the known serial numbers, even for "commericial" numbering..

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 06-11-2007, 12:13 AM

This might be quite a rare one...if like the one shown in R. Gibson's book on HK Lugers on pages 196-198...

Gibson reports some of these rare guns in the 11000, 28000, and 29000 SN range.

Pete Ebbink · 06-11-2007, 12:38 PM

BTW...Simpsons LTD shop had a similar HK for sale in their November 1998 catalogue.

It was listed as an early HK five digit with 150 mm barrel, SN 217xx with an arsenal refinish, very good bore, brown plastic grips. In 1998, the asking price was $ 6500 USD and that was a refinished one. Ad referred to Gibson book, page 198.

jo-08 · 06-11-2007, 03:17 PM

Hi,

I would like to thank Ron, Ed, and Pete for your inquiries.
Your answers are helpful for me.

Best regards

JoÃ?Â«l

Pete Ebbink · 06-11-2007, 05:34 PM

Joel,

If you do not have the Randall Gibson book about HK Lugers, I would be happy to scan some of the pages I mentioned, above, and email them to you.

Let me know and if you want the scans, send me your email address through the Private Message feature on the Luger Forum.

John D. · 06-11-2007, 06:21 PM

Hmmm.....

Let me pontificate for a moment.....

Most side-frame HKs had a "P" prefix, but yours is a Military Commercial - with a sideframe inscription. The inscription? - It appears to be absolutely correct in placement, characters and form.

As well, the C/N stamps are also correctly oriented and placed in the correct areas, as is the 5-point star.

The Toggle stamp, grips and frame cuts are also correct - based on what I can see...

However, I have not seen a 5-point star on the barrel previously? It would be interesting to see this HK first hand - but, if I were a "betting man" - here would be my assesment...

Military commercial, sideframe, all correct and a unique configuration....

In collecting HKs for years - I've learned "never say never" when it comes to Krieghoff production....

Very nice!!!!

John D.

Ron Smith · 06-12-2007, 12:34 AM

John,

The star is probably a French acceptance stamp as found on capture assembled P.38s.

Ron

John D. · 06-12-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Smith
John,

The star is probably a French acceptance stamp as found on capture assembled P.38s.

Ron

Hi Ron,

I think you may be right on..! I never considered a French Acceptance star!

Thanks - and best to you!

John

Pete Ebbink · 06-12-2007, 11:49 AM

John,

The 5-point star on the barrel looks like it might have been applied before the bluing of the barrel.

Is this consistent with other HK "stars" one sees ?

Ron,

Would a French-applied star show halo if the gun has not been refinished ?

I keep looking at the photos thinking the finish is original and then I think I see deep pits on the top of the toggle train that look like they are blued down deep...

John D. · 06-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Hey Pete!

Good eye. I'm not sure that the star on the barrel doesn't look distorted by nature, rather than refinishing (a flat stamp on a round barrel

) It would be interesting to measure the size of star on the bbl and compare it to the receiver, as I understand the French star is slightly larger (??) than an HK star - but I don't have anything with a French Star to measure??

best to you!

John D.

jo-08 · 06-12-2007, 04:17 PM

hi Pete, John and Ron,

It's a pleasure for me to see your interest to my H.K. It's not easy in France to have good informations.
I would like to add, that except a normal cleaning by me, this finish is original. It was exciting and a great moment to find it in a family who didn't collect arms. No doubts about the origin of this gun.

In a few days I'll put new photos of this gun magazine on the forum. I think it is also particular.

Best regards.

JoÃ?Â«l

John D. · 06-12-2007, 06:10 PM

Hi JoÃ?Â«l.!

It's our pleasure!! Ron and Peter are a fountain of knowledge - and I just hang on for the ride

Seriously, I would like to see more pictures - and of the magazine as well!

JoÃ?Â«l - welcome again to the LugerForum and thanks for sharing "your find"!!

John D.

Ron Smith · 06-12-2007, 06:39 PM

I'm a fountain... Pete's kind of a faucet...

06-10-2007, 11:14 AM	#1
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Side frame Krieghoff Hi, I have found this luger two years ago, in a family who didn't collect arms and militaria. The gun and the magazine are originals at 100%. I have found photos wich look like to my model except some dÃ?Â©tails. My gun has got 5 figures in the serial number and has not a " P" letter. I have seen in a book of Jan C. STILL that only 5 exemplaries are know in this serial number in the world. Is it correct? Could you tell me the value of this gun ? In advance I thank you very much for your answer. I have joined photos to this message Jo-08 Attached Thumbnails

06-10-2007, 11:24 AM	#2
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Side frime Krieghoff Another photo Attached Thumbnails

06-10-2007, 11:27 AM	#3
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Side frame Krieghoff another photo Attached Images

06-10-2007, 11:29 AM	#4
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	side frame another photo Attached Images

06-10-2007, 11:30 AM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Fenninger, John D (forum owner) recently had one posted for sale at $10,000. It has been sold, however at an unknown price. My understanding is that Luger values in Europe are somewhat lower than in the U.S. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-10-2007, 11:31 AM	#6
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	another photo Attached Images

06-10-2007, 11:38 AM	#7
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	side frame another photo Attached Thumbnails

06-10-2007, 11:47 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Although John's was a sideframe marking, it is kind of apples and oranges; http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=17151 As Johns is a P code, and is in better shape. Not to say that "fenninger" 's is not valuable, I am sure it is. I'd want it checked out by someone who knows Krieghoffs really well, that it matches, etc. PS: Sn 22728 does NOT flow in the known serial numbers, even for "commericial" numbering.. Ed

06-11-2007, 12:13 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	This might be quite a rare one...if like the one shown in R. Gibson's book on HK Lugers on pages 196-198... Gibson reports some of these rare guns in the 11000, 28000, and 29000 SN range.

06-11-2007, 12:38 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	BTW...Simpsons LTD shop had a similar HK for sale in their November 1998 catalogue. It was listed as an early HK five digit with 150 mm barrel, SN 217xx with an arsenal refinish, very good bore, brown plastic grips. In 1998, the asking price was $ 6500 USD and that was a refinished one. Ad referred to Gibson book, page 198.

06-11-2007, 03:17 PM	#11
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks Hi, I would like to thank Ron, Ed, and Pete for your inquiries. Your answers are helpful for me. Best regards JoÃ?Â«l

06-11-2007, 05:34 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Joel, If you do not have the Randall Gibson book about HK Lugers, I would be happy to scan some of the pages I mentioned, above, and email them to you. Let me know and if you want the scans, send me your email address through the Private Message feature on the Luger Forum.

06-11-2007, 06:21 PM	#13
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hmmm..... Let me pontificate for a moment..... Most side-frame HKs had a "P" prefix, but yours is a Military Commercial - with a sideframe inscription. The inscription? - It appears to be absolutely correct in placement, characters and form. As well, the C/N stamps are also correctly oriented and placed in the correct areas, as is the 5-point star. The Toggle stamp, grips and frame cuts are also correct - based on what I can see... However, I have not seen a 5-point star on the barrel previously? It would be interesting to see this HK first hand - but, if I were a "betting man" - here would be my assesment... Military commercial, sideframe, all correct and a unique configuration.... In collecting HKs for years - I've learned "never say never" when it comes to Krieghoff production.... Very nice!!!! John D.

06-12-2007, 12:34 AM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, The star is probably a French acceptance stamp as found on capture assembled P.38s. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-12-2007, 11:49 AM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	John, The 5-point star on the barrel looks like it might have been applied before the bluing of the barrel. Is this consistent with other HK "stars" one sees ? Ron, Would a French-applied star show halo if the gun has not been refinished ? I keep looking at the photos thinking the finish is original and then I think I see deep pits on the top of the toggle train that look like they are blued down deep...

06-12-2007, 01:32 PM	#17
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Pete! Good eye. I'm not sure that the star on the barrel doesn't look distorted by nature, rather than refinishing (a flat stamp on a round barrel ) It would be interesting to measure the size of star on the bbl and compare it to the receiver, as I understand the French star is slightly larger (??) than an HK star - but I don't have anything with a French Star to measure?? best to you! John D.

06-12-2007, 04:17 PM	#18
jo-08 User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm living in France Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	more informations hi Pete, John and Ron, It's a pleasure for me to see your interest to my H.K. It's not easy in France to have good informations. I would like to add, that except a normal cleaning by me, this finish is original. It was exciting and a great moment to find it in a family who didn't collect arms. No doubts about the origin of this gun. In a few days I'll put new photos of this gun magazine on the forum. I think it is also particular. Best regards. JoÃ?Â«l

06-12-2007, 06:10 PM	#19
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi JoÃ?Â«l.! It's our pleasure!! Ron and Peter are a fountain of knowledge - and I just hang on for the ride Seriously, I would like to see more pictures - and of the magazine as well! JoÃ?Â«l - welcome again to the LugerForum and thanks for sharing "your find"!! John D.

06-12-2007, 06:39 PM	#20
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I'm a fountain... Pete's kind of a faucet... __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...