my first LUGER - ITALIAN REGULATIONS!!

[fantomark]

CIAO!

I AM A BRAND NEW MEMBER FROM ITALY!

I HAVE JUST BOUGHT A VERY NICE LOOKING 1918 DWM LUGER, PROPERLY MARKED, WITH ALL METAL PARTS & GRIPS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION, CONSIDERING AGE (I WILL TRY TO SEND PHOTOS), AND WITH SAME REGISTRATION NUMBERS ON ALL PARTS, AND I AM HAPPY THAT AT LAST I CAN AFFORD A LUGER P08, SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED SICE A YOUNG BOY!!!!

HOWEVER, SINCE ITALIAN REGULATIONS FORBID USE OF 9MM PARABELLUM, MY P08 IS ONE OF THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN CONVERTED TO 7.65 PARABELLUM, WITH A BRAND NEW INSIDE BARREL.

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK ANY OF THE FORUM'S EXPERT IF THIS WOULD DETRACT FROM THE VALUE OF THE GUN, ANF IF YES BY HOW MUCH.

IN ANY CASE, THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IN ITALY , FOR THOSE WHO LIKE ME WISH TO TAKE (EVEN OCCASONALLY) THEIR PISTOL TO THE RANGE, WOULD BE TO GET A P08 MODIFIED TO ACCEPT THE 9x21 AMMO, THAT ARE ALSO ALLOWED (VERY CURIOUS REGULATIONS, DON'T YOU THINK??!!!...).

IN MY OPINION , THIS WOULD BE EVEN WORSE, SINCE WHILE THE 7.65 PARA WAS INDEED A LUGER AMMO, THE 9x21 NEVER WAS, SO I BELIEVE THAT FOR THOSE WHO NEED TO COMPLY WITH ITALIAN REGULATIONS, THE 7.65 PARA IS THE LESSER OF 2 EVILS....WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

IN ANY CASE ,IN THE FUTURE I MAY ALSO TRY TO GET A 9x21 P08 WHEN I COULD AFFOR ONE MORE LUGER, BUT I MUST BE CAUTIOS HERE: ITALIAN REGULATIONS ONLY ALLOW POSSESSION OF MAX 3 PRE-1890 PISTOLS, AND I AM ALREADY APPROACHING MY LIMIT, SINCE I HAVE GOT ALSO A WEBLEY .38 !!!!


FINALLY, I HAVE NOT TAKEN MY P08 TO THE RANGE YET...ANY ADVICE FROM ANYBODY OUT THERE ON ANY PRE-FIRING CHECKS ?

MANY THANKS IN ADVANCE TO EVERYBODY OUT THERE!!!!

[Lugerdoc]

I'd be interested to know how one converts a PO8 to 9x21mm, as the normal round is too long to fit into a luger magazine. TH

[Vlim]

Tom:

Probably by making sure the OAL of the 9x21 is equal to that of the 9x19.
Then you only need to deepen the chamber by some 2mm to facilitate the slightly longer case.

[fantomark]

YES, THIS IS EXACTLY, WHAT THE WEAPONS SHOP TOLD ME!!.

APPARENTLY, DEEPENING OF THE CHAMBER IS STANDARD PRACTICE OVER HERE.
THE THEORY IS THAT IN DOING THIS WAY YOU STILL HAVE A 9MM, SO THE GUN IS CLOSER TO THE ORIGINAL SPECS.

OTHERS INSTEAD MANTAIN THAT IF YOU NEED TO ALTER THE GUN BECAUSE OF THE REGULATIONS, THAN IT'S BETTER TO TURN IT INTO A 7.65 PARA.
IN THIS WAY, YOU WILL ACHIEVE THE DUAL PURPOSE OF HAVING A P08 WITH A BRAND NEW BARREL WHICH CAN FIRE LEGALLY APPROVED AMMO. OF AN ORIGINAL LUGER CALIBRE (EVEN IF NOT ORIGINAL FOR THAT SPECIFIC GUN)

FINALLY, SOME COLLECTORS WHO CAN AFFORD MORE THAN ONE LUGER, OFTEN DECIDE TO BUY ONE (IF THEY CAN FIND ONE AT ALL IN ITALY, I MEAN!) IN THE ORIGINAL 9MM PARABELLUM CONFIGURATION, KEEPING IT IN A GLASS CABINET - SINCE THEY WOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO ACQUIRE THE AMMO LEGALLY IN THIS COUNTRY!.

I REALLY WOULD BE INTERESTED IN HEARING THE VIEWS OF YOU LUGER EXPERTS!!!

I AM JUST A GREEN RECRUIT IN THE LUGER WORLD, BUT I AM HAPPY WITH WHAT I BOUGHT, AFTER YEARS OF SAVINGS FOR THIS PURPOSE.
AS I SAID I AM QUITE CONVINCED THAT IF ONE ONLY CAN AFFORD 1 LUGER AND HE WANTS TO FIRE IT OCCASIONALLY, THEN AS THINGS STAND, 7.65 PARA IS THE BEST OPTION....BUT PLS LET ME HAVE YOUR VIEWS!!

THANKS TO ALL!!

MARCO

[Karl]

Marco,

To answer your first question, in the United States having an original 9mm barrel sleeved to 7.65 would seriously lower its collector value. However, that might be different in Italy. For shooting purposes I would think the 7.65 Luger is better because the 9x21 mm would require custom reloading to achieve the shorter total length. Making 9mm parabellum illegal while permitting the use of other military ammo such as 9mm Largo (9x21) and 9mm Steyr (9x23) must rank among the most illogical of firearms regulations. KFS

[fantomark]

CIAO!
MANY THANKS FOR YOUR QUICK REPLY!

I WILL TRY TO SEND YOU SOME PHOTOS OF MY LUGER FOR YOU TO HAVE A LOOK AT , AND HAVE YOUR OPINION (BY, THE WAY, MAY I HAVE YR e-MAIL ADDRESS?).

I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THIS KIND OF REGULATION IS ALMOST COMICAL!
BUT HERE WE MUST LIVE UP WITH IT.
THE IDEA IS THAT THE 9 PARA IS STILL USED BY ITALY'S POLICE AND ARMED FORCES, SO SALES OF THIS AMMO TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC ARE ILLEGAL!!!

AS I SAID, A COMMON ALTERNATIVE IS DEEPENING OF THE CHAMBER TO FIRE THE 9x21, BUT I THINK THAT ALSO THIS WOULD IMPAIR ORIGINALITY TO SOME DEGREE. SO WHEN FACED WITH A CHOICE , ON BALANCE I DECIDED IN FAVOUR OF THE SLEEVED TO 7.65 BARREL.

IF FORCED TO CHOOSE, WOULD YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME?

CIAO!

MARCO

[paolo.orange]

Ciao Marco and welcome on board,
I'm from Milan too.

If the chamber is originally built as 9x19, to make the gun legal here in Italy it must be reamed to 9x21. This of course greatly decrease the value of the item, but it's our law. Only military, law enforcement, and museums can have 9x19.

Karl is 100% right, it's absolutely silly making 9x21 legal and 9x19 not. The issue that it's a "military" caliber really makes no sense because we can legaly shot much hotter"military cartriges" like .223, .308, .45ACP even .50 without any problem.

OAL of 9x21 and 9x19 are just the same (well, we know that P08 like longer then SAAMI rounds) and the magazine seem having no problem to manage 2 mm longer brass. Hand loading 9x21 is a pice of cake and you can easily and legaly make a round at NATO pressure.

Ciao,

P.S.: Marco, ti suggerisco di scrivere in corsivo perch�¨ l'uso del maiuscolo �¨ considerato "urlato" e poco amichevole. Ciao

[fantomark]

Thanks Paolo,
if you are from Milan, it would be nice to meet sometime (I live near Magenta)!
I am a beginner in the hobby and any advice would be welcome.
At the moment, obviously, the only choice is to buy only 7.65 para for my P08. the good part of it is that they are readily available, even at my local shooting range.

From what you have told me it seems that both a sleeved barrel and deepened chamber would reduce tha value of the P08, and what is better or worse of the 2 optios is just a matter of personal preference.
In both cases the originality of the gun will be spoilt, but as Paolo rightly put it , these are our regulations and there is nothing we can do about that at the present time!

Ciao, and thanks also for the advice against writing in capital letters....By the way : my offices mates are rebukie me in the same way when I write commercial letters!!!
Cheers!!!!

Marco

[Steinar]

Marco, if you purchase a new reproduction or mismatched barrel. And modify that one instead ..then keep the original. Would that be illegal?
In other words.. is having a loose barrel illegal in Italy?

[paolo.orange]

A loose barrel chambered in 9x19 would be considered military weapon part and it's forbidden.

Now I make you laugh:
I'm a competitive shooter of AR15 in our High Power Championship.
I shot an AR15 with the barrel marked 5.56 NATO that was imported in Italy in 1997. Fine, legal.
The regulations then changed and the same marking of the barrel of my M4 (imported in 2004) has been removed to make it legal.

[John Sabato]

Marco,

Benvenuto!

Welcome to the Lugerforum and to this great hobby.

Since your Luger has already been modified from its original configuration, any change in value has already taken place... so the best caliber is the one you already have since no expensive barrel change is required. Someday, you may find a 9x21 Luger... I wish you good fortune in this search.

Anche...Usi prego le lettere minuscole quando scrivete... e scusate la mia povera lingua italiana..

[MFC]

Hi Marco,
This seems obvious, but why wouldn't you just buy 7.65 para. Lugers? Every time an (all original) 9mm Luger has the barrel reamed or relined, there's one less in the world. There are a lot of original 7.65 out there, and you don't have to modify them in any way.
Mike C.

[fantomark]

Ciao, Mike!

First of all my apologizes to everybody for using capital letters in my previous messages.
The reason why I purchased a modified 7.65 para insted of an original 7.65 is simply because for as my first LUGER I have always wanted an Imperial DWM from the WWI Era. (mine is date 1918)
The one I bought was simply the first one I came across when at last I could afford to buy one, with all the parts matching and in good condition.
( I will post some photos as soon as I learn how to do it!!!???) for your evaluation.
I also had the choice of buying one in similar condition in 9x21, but for the reasons I mentioned above, on balance I thought that the 7.65 para was the best option (or the lesser of the 2 evils: 7.65 para being an original P08 caliber, while 9X21 is not) so I went for it!

As I said , I will post the photos soon....Just let me say that this Forum is just fantastic: so much info and friendly guys...and a good opportunity to improve my english!

Ciao to eveybody from hot, hot, Milano!

Marco