Black Widow, byf-41 - Should I Buy?

RylanBrissette · 11-13-2007, 07:44 PM

Hello Guys, I am considering buying this black widow. I will be getting more pictures shortly so stay tuned.

All is matching exept for the sideplate, the price is $500. I am not sure if the grips are authentic or if the finish is original. Any thoughts? I know the pictures aren't the best, but they are all I got at the moment.

The mag doesn't look perioid, but I am no expert with luger mags. The base looks a little funny to me.

I have waited for a while to get a cheap black widow, and the price seems right. I am assuming the side plate was thrown away to disarm the gun? Sorry if my paragraphs don't flow well, I am a little exited as it has been awile since I have bought a Luger. I look forward to hearing your comments.

This is what the owner wrote about it: "Handguns, these are all part of my fatherÃ¢??s collection. He has decided to sell these so others can enjoy them as much as he has in past decades. They have all been shot at one time, and wel cared for. -Luger P-08, BYF-41, 9mm, 101MM barrel, 12-6 gun
Nice early gun, Black composite grips, all matching except side plate, bore is good light frosting through out, nazi marked $600.00 PLUS Shipping"

zinfull · 11-13-2007, 08:20 PM

Sounds like a deal to me. I would pay closer to $850 for the gun.

Jerry

RylanBrissette · 11-13-2007, 09:27 PM

Hey guys, it seems as if I have bought this Luger

Waiting for the governmeant to reply.

As promised, the pictures.

John Sabato · 11-14-2007, 03:26 PM

My initial impression is that the grips are genuine... but I have to see the insides in clear focus closeup to be sure. The gun is in very nice shape... some of Mauser's finest work. Congrats.

Ron Smith · 11-14-2007, 03:38 PM

Don't know the going rate up North, but I would think it's worth at least 3 times what you paid for it, here in the States.

Nice buy...

Ron

Edward Tinker · 11-14-2007, 04:00 PM

Ron, I think he got a good deal, but with a mismatched sideplate, it kinda puts it in the category of a shooter for me. A firing pin or grips mismatched don't bother me, a sideplate does.

ed

RylanBrissette · 11-14-2007, 08:46 PM

Thanks for the comments guys, I would also consider this a good deal, even by Canadian standards. The only reasons why you can find good deals up here is because 4" barreled Lugers are prohibited in Canada. So few people can legally own them, thankfully my father is one of them.

At the gun show I have seen an all matching 1917 DWM in really good shape for about $500... it has been there at every show for as long as I have been going (1.5 years) Which also seems like a good deal, but the fact of the matter is not many people can buy them which makes them a lot less expensive.

As far as the black widow I bought, I guess I too would consider it a shooter. But to be honest I would much rather have a mis-matched sideplate than a firing pin or even grips. It is the hidden mis-matched parts that bother me

I will get take lots of good photos once it arrives.. which could be a couple of weeks due to Canadian laws...

Any thoughts to why the extractor has the "reddish" strawing finish? To be honest I am not familiar with what strawing is... maybe somebody could briefly explain it. Thanks again.

Mauser720 · 11-14-2007, 09:49 PM

byfMostlyMatching -

"Strawing" refers to the "Straw" yellow color of the trigger, take down lever, magazine release, safety lever and ejector bar. The color was obtained by controlled heat treating. It was discontinued in 1937 with the change over to hot salt bluing by Mauser.

Mauser720 - Ron

RylanBrissette · 11-14-2007, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mauser720
byfMostlyMatching -

"Strawing" refers to the "Straw" yellow color of the trigger, take down lever, magazine release, safety lever and ejector bar. The color was obtained by controlled heat treating. It was discontinued in 1937 with the change over to hot salt bluing by Mauser.

Mauser720 - Ron

Thanks for the info, would you consider the ejector bar to have "strawing finish on it", if so. Would that mean that it is not supposed to be on this '41 dated Luger?

Pete Ebbink · 11-15-2007, 01:01 AM

Looks like the ejector is "plum" in color.

That happens when the bluing solution concentrations and/or temp. are week or not at the right temps. You see that on some WWII Lugers when all parts should be "blued"....

You see it on extractors as well...

I would not worry about it...

Steinar · 11-15-2007, 04:06 AM

Rylan; this is a very plum byf 41 I have
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=Serial
May be difficult to see from the pictures, but the whole upper part is plum.

..personaly I think the colour looks nice

RylanBrissette · 11-15-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgan Kane
Rylan; this is a very plum byf 41 I have
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=Serial
May be difficult to see from the pictures, but the whole upper part is plum.

..personaly I think the colour looks nice

First I would like to say... I had typed out about 2 or 3 long paragraphs and my internet failed..........great!

I will do my best to reconstruct what I wrote..

Morgon nice Luger, the single digit serial number is really cool! The plum tone never bothered me, I kinda like it. But I got it confused with "strawing", so I was worried the ejector bar was not original with my new Luger.

I have a couple more questions, sadly my knowledge of Lugers is not nearly as good as it should be.. its about 12:30am on a school night... so I will do this fast.

1. I noticed this black widow has a serialized safetly lever, I was not aware that these were stamped with a serial #, I was wondering if there is a list of parts that were serialized during the third reich era. if someone could send me a link or something that would be great.

2. I was wondering if anyone knows wether or not the mag pictured is post war? I think the base is post war, but I could be wrong... also are there any other links to info about lugers becides this forum/site? I would be interested in reading about luger magazines, what manufactures made plastic base, aluminum base etc.. I really don't know a whole lot about them.

I might have to buy a book if there are no other good links, so a recomendation would be good too! thanks for the help.

Rylan

Dwight Gruber · 11-15-2007, 12:20 PM

Yor magazine looks like a KKK (Triple-K) aftermarket magazine. See how many rounds it holds. Original magazines (and almost all modern replacements) hold eight; Triple-Ks only hold seven.

--Dwight

Mauser720 · 11-15-2007, 12:41 PM

byfMostlyMatching -

Here is a list that appears in the FAQ portion of the "New Collectors Forum" which might be helpful.

Mauser720 - Ron

What parts must be numbered on a Luger?
The following parts should have serial numbers on them:
Frame, full serial number with suffix
Under barrel, full serial number with or without suffix
Left side of the receiver, full serial number without suffix.

All the following parts should have the last two numerals stamped on them:
Firing pin
Extractor
Sear bar
Breechblock
Front toggle link
Rear toggle link
Locking bolt (takedown lever)
Side plate (with a few exceptions through the years, see comments on side plate)
Trigger
Safety lever
Safety bar
Hold-open latch
Grips (inside)
Note, that the rear toggle pin was not serial-numbered until 1932.
There were two "styles" of serial number marking, Commercial style and Military style. In commercial style some of the numbers, notably the side-plate and locking bolt, were stamped underneath in a way which did not affect the surface look of the gun--military serial numbers were stamped on the visible surfaces. If your mismatched parts are stamped highly visibly they likely come from military guns.

Aaron · 11-15-2007, 01:08 PM

The mag is definitely entirely post war. You could get an original plastic bottom mag, as they are available, though a little pricey.

Pete Ebbink · 11-15-2007, 02:12 PM

John S.,

The black plastic grips do not seem to fit the front and back of the grip strap...being a bit too short.

Would you expect this on BW grips ?

RylanBrissette · 11-15-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
John S.,

The black plastic grips do not seem to fit the front and back of the grip strap...being a bit too short.

Would you expect this on BW grips ?

I am not sure what you mean. If you don't mind, circle the area that is in concern.

Are you talking about around the grip screw?

Pete Ebbink · 11-15-2007, 10:13 PM

RylanBrissette · 11-15-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink

They look fine to me, does anyone else have any opinions on this?

MFC · 11-15-2007, 11:41 PM

Rylan,
What Pete is refering to is the fact that you can see so much of the frame, usually hidden by the grips.
Mike C.

11-13-2007, 07:44 PM	#1
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Black Widow, byf-41 - Should I Buy? Hello Guys, I am considering buying this black widow. I will be getting more pictures shortly so stay tuned. All is matching exept for the sideplate, the price is $500. I am not sure if the grips are authentic or if the finish is original. Any thoughts? I know the pictures aren't the best, but they are all I got at the moment. The mag doesn't look perioid, but I am no expert with luger mags. The base looks a little funny to me. I have waited for a while to get a cheap black widow, and the price seems right. I am assuming the side plate was thrown away to disarm the gun? Sorry if my paragraphs don't flow well, I am a little exited as it has been awile since I have bought a Luger. I look forward to hearing your comments. This is what the owner wrote about it: "Handguns, these are all part of my fatherÃ¢??s collection. He has decided to sell these so others can enjoy them as much as he has in past decades. They have all been shot at one time, and wel cared for. -Luger P-08, BYF-41, 9mm, 101MM barrel, 12-6 gun Nice early gun, Black composite grips, all matching except side plate, bore is good light frosting through out, nazi marked $600.00 PLUS Shipping"

11-14-2007, 03:26 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	My initial impression is that the grips are genuine... but I have to see the insides in clear focus closeup to be sure. The gun is in very nice shape... some of Mauser's finest work. Congrats. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-14-2007, 03:38 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Don't know the going rate up North, but I would think it's worth at least 3 times what you paid for it, here in the States. Nice buy... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-14-2007, 04:00 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Ron, I think he got a good deal, but with a mismatched sideplate, it kinda puts it in the category of a shooter for me. A firing pin or grips mismatched don't bother me, a sideplate does. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-14-2007, 09:49 PM	#8
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	byfMostlyMatching - "Strawing" refers to the "Straw" yellow color of the trigger, take down lever, magazine release, safety lever and ejector bar. The color was obtained by controlled heat treating. It was discontinued in 1937 with the change over to hot salt bluing by Mauser. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

11-13-2007, 08:20 PM	#2
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 243 Thanks: 5 Thanked 33 Times in 16 Posts	Sounds like a deal to me. I would pay closer to $850 for the gun. Jerry

11-13-2007, 09:27 PM	#3
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey guys, it seems as if I have bought this Luger Waiting for the governmeant to reply. As promised, the pictures.

11-14-2007, 08:46 PM	#7
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the comments guys, I would also consider this a good deal, even by Canadian standards. The only reasons why you can find good deals up here is because 4" barreled Lugers are prohibited in Canada. So few people can legally own them, thankfully my father is one of them. At the gun show I have seen an all matching 1917 DWM in really good shape for about $500... it has been there at every show for as long as I have been going (1.5 years) Which also seems like a good deal, but the fact of the matter is not many people can buy them which makes them a lot less expensive. As far as the black widow I bought, I guess I too would consider it a shooter. But to be honest I would much rather have a mis-matched sideplate than a firing pin or even grips. It is the hidden mis-matched parts that bother me I will get take lots of good photos once it arrives.. which could be a couple of weeks due to Canadian laws... Any thoughts to why the extractor has the "reddish" strawing finish? To be honest I am not familiar with what strawing is... maybe somebody could briefly explain it. Thanks again.

11-15-2007, 01:01 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Looks like the ejector is "plum" in color. That happens when the bluing solution concentrations and/or temp. are week or not at the right temps. You see that on some WWII Lugers when all parts should be "blued".... You see it on extractors as well... I would not worry about it...

11-15-2007, 04:06 AM	#11
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Rylan; this is a very plum byf 41 I have http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=Serial May be difficult to see from the pictures, but the whole upper part is plum. ..personaly I think the colour looks nice __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

11-15-2007, 12:20 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Yor magazine looks like a KKK (Triple-K) aftermarket magazine. See how many rounds it holds. Original magazines (and almost all modern replacements) hold eight; Triple-Ks only hold seven. --Dwight

11-15-2007, 12:41 PM	#14
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	byfMostlyMatching - Here is a list that appears in the FAQ portion of the "New Collectors Forum" which might be helpful. Mauser720 - Ron What parts must be numbered on a Luger? The following parts should have serial numbers on them: Frame, full serial number with suffix Under barrel, full serial number with or without suffix Left side of the receiver, full serial number without suffix. All the following parts should have the last two numerals stamped on them: Firing pin Extractor Sear bar Breechblock Front toggle link Rear toggle link Locking bolt (takedown lever) Side plate (with a few exceptions through the years, see comments on side plate) Trigger Safety lever Safety bar Hold-open latch Grips (inside) Note, that the rear toggle pin was not serial-numbered until 1932. There were two "styles" of serial number marking, Commercial style and Military style. In commercial style some of the numbers, notably the side-plate and locking bolt, were stamped underneath in a way which did not affect the surface look of the gun--military serial numbers were stamped on the visible surfaces. If your mismatched parts are stamped highly visibly they likely come from military guns. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

11-15-2007, 01:08 PM	#15
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	The mag is definitely entirely post war. You could get an original plastic bottom mag, as they are available, though a little pricey.

11-15-2007, 02:12 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	John S., The black plastic grips do not seem to fit the front and back of the grip strap...being a bit too short. Would you expect this on BW grips ?

11-15-2007, 10:13 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

11-15-2007, 11:41 PM	#20
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Rylan, What Pete is refering to is the fact that you can see so much of the frame, usually hidden by the grips. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.