Two GNR Lugers

Lugers down under · 01-04-2008, 10:57 PM

I have today been reliably informed that two consecuativly numbered GNR lugers are coming up for auction down under here in early March.
If any one is interested please contact me.

Pete Ebbink · 01-05-2008, 12:55 AM

Murray,

Are these the two GNR's that a NZ collector originally purchased from Goran Glucina via AZ State here in the USA ?

I understand those two guns were "forced matched".

They were SN 2374v and SN 2375v.

Lugers down under · 01-05-2008, 01:08 AM

Hi Pete,
Yes, you are correct, they are the two same guns but I never knew that they were "forced matched".
It is about 8 years since I saw them and at that time only briefly.
Very interesting. What else do you know about them?
Regards

Zamo · 01-05-2008, 01:22 AM

Time to display my ignorance again..."GNR" Lugers? "Forced" matching?
Help! What do these terms mean?

Edward Tinker · 01-05-2008, 03:36 AM

Zamo, "forced matched" is where someone, such as at an aresenal (that is what everyone wants to beleive

) or more likely private USA individuals "make" a part the same numbers or style of the other parts. In other words, forced the parts to now match the gun.

I have no idea what a GNR is... It has something to do with Porteguese lugers, but I have never understood where the GNR abbreviation comes into play...

LugerVern · 01-05-2008, 03:56 AM

The Portuguese Republican National Guard (Guarda Nacional Republicana or GNR in Portuguese) is the Portuguese gendarmerie.

564 guns were delivered in 1935, confirmed by official sources.

A large GNR is stamped on the receiver top.

Vern

MFC · 01-05-2008, 03:57 AM

Zamo,
A GNR Luger is a Portuguese contract of which 564 were delivered in 1935, but were made in the 1906 model style with a grip safety, 7.65mm and 4 3/4" barrel. They have an intertwined GNR on the chamber, which stands for Garde Nationale Republicanie (Republic National Gaurd).
Mike C.

thegundude · 01-05-2008, 10:12 AM

Zamo, don't let these brainy guys fool you. GNR stands for "Guns N Roses"... Any rocker would know that!!

waltherguy · 01-05-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thegundude
Zamo, don't let these brainy guys fool you. GNR stands for "Guns N Roses"... Any rocker would know that!!

Hehe.. ya I was going to say.. did these belong to Axl Rose or something?

Mauser720 · 01-05-2008, 10:53 AM

Another interesting thing about a force matched gun is that often there is no attempt made to hide the original numbers on a force matched part. By this, I mean that the original number will simply have a chisel mark across it, and the new number will be stamped somewhere near the old number. In a case like this, it is obvious that there was nothing to hide. In other words, this was probably done at a government arsenal, or as a field expedient repair.

However, in the two pictures which Pete has provided, you can see several things: (1) The old numbers (if there ever were any) have been obliterated; (2) The new numbers show a degree of "slopiness" that would have never been tolerated on an originally numbered part; and, (3) Unless you knew what you were looking at, you would think these parts were originally numbered to these particular guns.

So why would anyone do this?

Answer: To claim the guns are all matching and thereby increase their value when they are sold.

Mauser720 - Ron

Pete Ebbink · 01-05-2008, 12:57 PM

Some collectors seem to be willing to pay a price premium for consecutively-numbered guns as well...assuming both individual guns are factory-matching and the SN's of each gun are originally 1 gun apart from each other when they left the factory.

Zamo · 01-05-2008, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the clarifications.

"Momma take these guns from me, I can't shoot them anymore"
seems an appropriate GNR lyric (even if penned by Dylan).

Pete Ebbink · 01-07-2008, 12:57 PM

"Forced match" is normally when some small parts are re-numbered (or numbered from a un-numbered spare part) to appear to be an original parts that left the Luger factory with that gun.

"Forced consecutively numbered" would be to take two guns that are not originally 1 serial number apart and modify the SN stampins on one or both guns to get them to appear to have been made at the Luger factory side-by-side on the same day.

I guess a worst-case scenario (or a best-case...) in Luger booster-heaven would be to take 2 guns that each have been individually forced-matched and then force them to appear consecutively numbered to each other, as well...

A.Mifsin · 01-07-2008, 04:33 PM

Force match Until now for me was, when someone match any mismatched part of the gun with an original part from another gun, but with the last two numbers equal ( same ) to the serial number of the mismatched gun.
Alf

A.Mifsin · 01-07-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mauser720
Another interesting thing about a force matched gun is that often there is no attempt made to hide the original numbers on a force matched part. By this, I mean that the original number will simply have a chisel mark across it, and the new number will be stamped somewhere near the old number. In a case like this, it is obvious that there was nothing to hide. In other words, this was probably done at a government arsenal, or as a field expedient repair.

However, in the two pictures which Pete has provided, you can see several things: (1) The old numbers (if there ever were any) have been obliterated; (2) The new numbers show a degree of "slopiness" that would have never been tolerated on an originally numbered part; and, (3) Unless you knew what you were looking at, you would think these parts were originally numbered to these particular guns.

So why would anyone do this?

Answer: To claim the guns are all matching and thereby increase their value when they are sold.

Mauser720 - Ron

Which is the old number and which is the old number?
How can you tell which is which?
Alf

Pete Ebbink · 01-07-2008, 05:11 PM

I think the "new" number on one of the triggers is the "7". The original number under this "7" appears to possibly be a "3"...or another different number.

The strike of the "7" is the most recently struck number...as it is fully developed and not intersected by the older number underneath it.

John Sabato · 01-07-2008, 05:11 PM

Alfred,

Examine the lower photograph above under high magnification and you can see that the numeral "7" was the last one stamped into the metal over an existing numeral "6" or "8"... The last displacement of the metal by the stamp is usually pretty easy to discern.

John Sabato · 01-07-2008, 05:12 PM

Looks like Pete and I pulled the "trigger" on that last explanation at exactly the same time

Pete Ebbink · 01-07-2008, 08:23 PM

Murray,

Here is some of the history of these GNR's and a M1914 Navy (1917-dated) from the same seller in NZ :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4663

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4830

BTW...I have a scanned copy of the sales receipt for these 3 guns (plus one other...a M1900 AE) when they originally left AZ State in 1998 and headed to the NZ broker.

Lugers down under · 01-07-2008, 10:57 PM

Thanks for the information Pete,

Apart from the "condition" of the GNR's which I understood claims were made of them being between 75% and 95% I was not ever aware that they were a forced pair and I doubt that any one did until the time of the posts in 2005 (which I had not seen nor was aware of.

Forum members might not be aware that there is a "Sales of goods Act" in New Zealand which provides that if you are unsatisfied with a purchase you have the right of return and refund, replacement or repair with in 3 days.

I saw them first (briefly)in August 2001 after they had changed hands in early 1999. They looked like typical "used" military guns, (which of course they were)

I have no interest in them whatsoever and only mentioned them in the off chance some one was interested as they were coming up for sale.......in fact I now wish that I had never made the post...

The older I get the more naive.

In my next life I think I will be a stamp dealer, beats the hell out of carrying heavy cases of guns to gun shows......but there are fakes in that field to...ain't there.

01-04-2008, 10:57 PM	#1
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Two GNR Lugers I have today been reliably informed that two consecuativly numbered GNR lugers are coming up for auction down under here in early March. If any one is interested please contact me. __________________ Lugers down under

01-05-2008, 01:08 AM	#3
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Pete, Yes, you are correct, they are the two same guns but I never knew that they were "forced matched". It is about 8 years since I saw them and at that time only briefly. Very interesting. What else do you know about them? Regards __________________ Lugers down under

01-05-2008, 03:36 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Zamo, "forced matched" is where someone, such as at an aresenal (that is what everyone wants to beleive ) or more likely private USA individuals "make" a part the same numbers or style of the other parts. In other words, forced the parts to now match the gun. I have no idea what a GNR is... It has something to do with Porteguese lugers, but I have never understood where the GNR abbreviation comes into play... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-05-2008, 03:57 AM	#7
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Zamo, A GNR Luger is a Portuguese contract of which 564 were delivered in 1935, but were made in the 1906 model style with a grip safety, 7.65mm and 4 3/4" barrel. They have an intertwined GNR on the chamber, which stands for Garde Nationale Republicanie (Republic National Gaurd). Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

01-05-2008, 10:12 AM	#8
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Zamo, don't let these brainy guys fool you. GNR stands for "Guns N Roses"... Any rocker would know that!! __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-05-2008, 12:55 AM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Murray, Are these the two GNR's that a NZ collector originally purchased from Goran Glucina via AZ State here in the USA ? I understand those two guns were "forced matched". They were SN 2374v and SN 2375v.

01-05-2008, 01:22 AM	#4
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Time to display my ignorance again..."GNR" Lugers? "Forced" matching? Help! What do these terms mean?

01-05-2008, 03:56 AM	#6
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	The Portuguese Republican National Guard (Guarda Nacional Republicana or GNR in Portuguese) is the Portuguese gendarmerie. 564 guns were delivered in 1935, confirmed by official sources. A large GNR is stamped on the receiver top. Vern

01-05-2008, 10:53 AM	#10
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Another interesting thing about a force matched gun is that often there is no attempt made to hide the original numbers on a force matched part. By this, I mean that the original number will simply have a chisel mark across it, and the new number will be stamped somewhere near the old number. In a case like this, it is obvious that there was nothing to hide. In other words, this was probably done at a government arsenal, or as a field expedient repair. However, in the two pictures which Pete has provided, you can see several things: (1) The old numbers (if there ever were any) have been obliterated; (2) The new numbers show a degree of "slopiness" that would have never been tolerated on an originally numbered part; and, (3) Unless you knew what you were looking at, you would think these parts were originally numbered to these particular guns. So why would anyone do this? Answer: To claim the guns are all matching and thereby increase their value when they are sold. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

01-05-2008, 12:57 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Some collectors seem to be willing to pay a price premium for consecutively-numbered guns as well...assuming both individual guns are factory-matching and the SN's of each gun are originally 1 gun apart from each other when they left the factory.

01-05-2008, 01:53 PM	#12
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Thanks for the clarifications. "Momma take these guns from me, I can't shoot them anymore" seems an appropriate GNR lyric (even if penned by Dylan). __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm

01-07-2008, 12:57 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	"Forced match" is normally when some small parts are re-numbered (or numbered from a un-numbered spare part) to appear to be an original parts that left the Luger factory with that gun. "Forced consecutively numbered" would be to take two guns that are not originally 1 serial number apart and modify the SN stampins on one or both guns to get them to appear to have been made at the Luger factory side-by-side on the same day. I guess a worst-case scenario (or a best-case...) in Luger booster-heaven would be to take 2 guns that each have been individually forced-matched and then force them to appear consecutively numbered to each other, as well...

01-07-2008, 04:33 PM	#14
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Force match Until now for me was, when someone match any mismatched part of the gun with an original part from another gun, but with the last two numbers equal ( same ) to the serial number of the mismatched gun. Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger

01-07-2008, 05:11 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I think the "new" number on one of the triggers is the "7". The original number under this "7" appears to possibly be a "3"...or another different number. The strike of the "7" is the most recently struck number...as it is fully developed and not intersected by the older number underneath it.

01-07-2008, 05:11 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Alfred, Examine the lower photograph above under high magnification and you can see that the numeral "7" was the last one stamped into the metal over an existing numeral "6" or "8"... The last displacement of the metal by the stamp is usually pretty easy to discern. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-07-2008, 05:12 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Looks like Pete and I pulled the "trigger" on that last explanation at exactly the same time __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-07-2008, 08:23 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Murray, Here is some of the history of these GNR's and a M1914 Navy (1917-dated) from the same seller in NZ : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4663 http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4830 BTW...I have a scanned copy of the sales receipt for these 3 guns (plus one other...a M1900 AE) when they originally left AZ State in 1998 and headed to the NZ broker.

01-07-2008, 10:57 PM	#20
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks for the information Pete, Apart from the "condition" of the GNR's which I understood claims were made of them being between 75% and 95% I was not ever aware that they were a forced pair and I doubt that any one did until the time of the posts in 2005 (which I had not seen nor was aware of. Forum members might not be aware that there is a "Sales of goods Act" in New Zealand which provides that if you are unsatisfied with a purchase you have the right of return and refund, replacement or repair with in 3 days. I saw them first (briefly)in August 2001 after they had changed hands in early 1999. They looked like typical "used" military guns, (which of course they were) I have no interest in them whatsoever and only mentioned them in the off chance some one was interested as they were coming up for sale.......in fact I now wish that I had never made the post... The older I get the more naive. In my next life I think I will be a stamp dealer, beats the hell out of carrying heavy cases of guns to gun shows......but there are fakes in that field to...ain't there. __________________ Lugers down under