1911 DWM Questions

02-26-2001, 01:07 PM

I was just referred to this forum, so this is my first posting. I hope my question is appropiate for this forum.

I'm trying to find out some information on a DWM 1911 dated Luger that a friend's father-in-law brought home from WWII.

I have already done some research, and am hoping that some of the Luger experts here will be able to confirm and add to my findings so far.

THe pistol in question is 9mm, with a 4" barrel. DWM in script on top of the toggle. Serial number on front of frame below barrel is 40XX with what looks like a upper case cursive "L" below it. THe 40XX is repeated on the underside of the barrel. The last two digits of the SN are repeated on the toggle and on the part of the safety that slides up to block the bar that releases the firing pin. THe XX is also on the bar just mentioned also. THe full serial number with teh script letter also appears on the wooden base of the magazine.

Below the barrel by the SN is 8,83 which I assume would be bore diameter.

THe date 1911 is stamped on the top of the chamber. There are several proof marks on the sides of the barrel, toggle and frame in various places.

Pistol has wooden grips, no grip safety, and no stock lug. I think I've found this pistol identified in teh Blue Book as a "1908 Military Dated Chamber (1910-1913)".

The gun itself is in excellent condition both mechanically and in finish. Pistol was obviously well polished and finished and finish is nearly all there with the exception of a couple sharpe edges and along the plate that holds the trigger in.

This pistol has no slide hold open mechanism. Someone told me that this feature was added on to later Lugers and that because mine doesn't have it, my pistol was never sent in for an arsenal overhall. Does this make it more desireable? I wonder how it could have made it through two World Wars in such beautiful shape.

ALso with the pistol is a tan leather holster. It has a large flap the covers the entire handle of the pistol. There is a spare magazine in the pouch that isn't marked with a serial number on the buttplate. The back of the holster between the belt loops is marked:

CARL ACKVA

BADKREUZNACH (SP? tough to read)

1939

Nazi Eagle over swastika

WaA286

The holster is in very good shape. All stitching is intact, no cracking or splitting of leather. Outside of holster has some minor scuffs and scratches on it, but looks good. The holster is obviously much newer than the pistol. They were brought home from WWII together though and from the way the holser is worn on the inside, the pistol has been in it for a long time.

Could anyone provide me with more information on this pistol or the holster? Also, I hate to ask, but what would a fair value for this pistol and holster combo be? My friend doesn't intend to sell, but of course wants to know "what's it worth".

Also, I'd like to try shooting a couple magazines of ammo through the gun. Will use standard FMJ roundnose ammo. Any advice there?

Many thanks,

Jason

Frank · 02-26-2001, 01:26 PM

First of all if the condition is as good as you say it is, I wouldn't recommend shooting it. If something breaks or is damaged, the pistol's value will decrease a great deal. Next, the pistol in excellect condition is worth over $1000, maybe up to $1500, for the right set of circumstances. My guess would be closer to the lower figure. The holster will sell for somewhere around $200 and the spare magazine in the $100 to $125 range. Now that's assuming they are in pretty good condition. Well that's my 2 cents worth.

jason · 02-26-2001, 05:27 PM

Frank,

Thanks for the advice. I won't shoot it to preserve the collector value. I'll just have to find myself a shootable Luger. I guess I could live with that!

Jason

02-26-2001, 06:47 PM

Frank provided good advice. This 90 year old pistol may have 90 year old wood grips and the grips will not take the recoil shock of being fired. The right grip in particular has a thin wood rib on the back that breaks easily when old or subjected to stress. I see broken grips often and you can tell by "wiggling" the right grip. If it wiggles, it may well be broken on the back. The finish on the 1911 DWM's was beautiful and durable so it is quite possible it has survived. It may have been an officer's, trainer's or administrator's pistol and seen little use but to hang on a clothes hook in an office. The officers who surrendered in WW2 often turned in old lugers in holsters that they may have carried for many many years.

The holster is a much later date, of course. It should not be stored with the luger inside. The leather becomes oil-soaked and/or the luger metal finish is worn or corroded by chemicals/moisture in the leather. The leather should not be messed with except to brush off dust. Any soap, oil, goo or other stuff you slather on it will darken and devalue it substantially. To date, there is no known treatment that aids this kind of leather but there are multitudes of treatments that will damage it.

The luger sounds like a great gun but shooting it is rolling the dice in an expensive way. I have seen lugers that could have been safely fired had the grips been switched with some replacements for shooting purposes and the firing pin replaced with a generic new pin for the same purpose. Unfortunately, broken firing pins and broken grips (these are serial numberd to your pistol if original) take that $1100 pistol and make it a $350 conversation piece. That IS how much a broken firing pin or ruined grips will lower the value.

Tell your buddy he MAY have a luger worth over $1000 but only an inspection by a luger expert can be sure..

Dave

Frank · 02-26-2001, 06:51 PM

Tom Heller has a few for sale. If you have a Federal Firearms License AIM Surplus, Southern Ohio Guns (SOG), Ralph Shattuck are all suppliers of "Shootable" Lugers. If you don't have one, then any sporting goods store, that's not a chain store might help you (for a fee). Good Luck.

02-27-2001, 12:48 PM

Thanks again Frank and Mac,

I didn't know about the grip and firing pin problems. I definately won't try shooting this gun. My buddy probably wouldn't be to happy if I gave his Luger back with a broken grip.

My next question was going to be about the holster. Somebody suggested Pecard's leather treatment, but I may just leave well enough alone. I will not store the pistol in the holster. Also I may put something through the belt loops to keep them from being crushed flat from the holster laying on them. Any suggestions on what to use? (obviously something that won't react with the leather).

Thanks guys,

Jason

John Sabato · 02-27-2001, 01:14 PM

A piece of plexiglas with the edges rounded and the appropriate size should maintain the belt loops without having an adverse reaction with the leather. Do not keep the holster in too dry an environment to prevent dry rot. Don't use the strap closure it any more than necessary unless it very pliable. At this age it will wear out rapidly.

02-26-2001, 01:07 PM	#1
Jason Dubois Guest Posts: n/a	1911 DWM Questions I was just referred to this forum, so this is my first posting. I hope my question is appropiate for this forum. I'm trying to find out some information on a DWM 1911 dated Luger that a friend's father-in-law brought home from WWII. I have already done some research, and am hoping that some of the Luger experts here will be able to confirm and add to my findings so far. THe pistol in question is 9mm, with a 4" barrel. DWM in script on top of the toggle. Serial number on front of frame below barrel is 40XX with what looks like a upper case cursive "L" below it. THe 40XX is repeated on the underside of the barrel. The last two digits of the SN are repeated on the toggle and on the part of the safety that slides up to block the bar that releases the firing pin. THe XX is also on the bar just mentioned also. THe full serial number with teh script letter also appears on the wooden base of the magazine. Below the barrel by the SN is 8,83 which I assume would be bore diameter. THe date 1911 is stamped on the top of the chamber. There are several proof marks on the sides of the barrel, toggle and frame in various places. Pistol has wooden grips, no grip safety, and no stock lug. I think I've found this pistol identified in teh Blue Book as a "1908 Military Dated Chamber (1910-1913)". The gun itself is in excellent condition both mechanically and in finish. Pistol was obviously well polished and finished and finish is nearly all there with the exception of a couple sharpe edges and along the plate that holds the trigger in. This pistol has no slide hold open mechanism. Someone told me that this feature was added on to later Lugers and that because mine doesn't have it, my pistol was never sent in for an arsenal overhall. Does this make it more desireable? I wonder how it could have made it through two World Wars in such beautiful shape. ALso with the pistol is a tan leather holster. It has a large flap the covers the entire handle of the pistol. There is a spare magazine in the pouch that isn't marked with a serial number on the buttplate. The back of the holster between the belt loops is marked: CARL ACKVA BADKREUZNACH (SP? tough to read) 1939 Nazi Eagle over swastika WaA286 The holster is in very good shape. All stitching is intact, no cracking or splitting of leather. Outside of holster has some minor scuffs and scratches on it, but looks good. The holster is obviously much newer than the pistol. They were brought home from WWII together though and from the way the holser is worn on the inside, the pistol has been in it for a long time. Could anyone provide me with more information on this pistol or the holster? Also, I hate to ask, but what would a fair value for this pistol and holster combo be? My friend doesn't intend to sell, but of course wants to know "what's it worth". Also, I'd like to try shooting a couple magazines of ammo through the gun. Will use standard FMJ roundnose ammo. Any advice there? Many thanks, Jason

02-26-2001, 01:26 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Jason, Looks like you have done your homework !! First of all if the condition is as good as you say it is, I wouldn't recommend shooting it. If something breaks or is damaged, the pistol's value will decrease a great deal. Next, the pistol in excellect condition is worth over $1000, maybe up to $1500, for the right set of circumstances. My guess would be closer to the lower figure. The holster will sell for somewhere around $200 and the spare magazine in the $100 to $125 range. Now that's assuming they are in pretty good condition. Well that's my 2 cents worth.

02-26-2001, 05:27 PM	#3
jason User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: fargo nd Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, I won't shoot it Frank, Thanks for the advice. I won't shoot it to preserve the collector value. I'll just have to find myself a shootable Luger. I guess I could live with that! Jason

02-26-2001, 06:47 PM	#4
mac Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Thanks, I won't shoot it Frank provided good advice. This 90 year old pistol may have 90 year old wood grips and the grips will not take the recoil shock of being fired. The right grip in particular has a thin wood rib on the back that breaks easily when old or subjected to stress. I see broken grips often and you can tell by "wiggling" the right grip. If it wiggles, it may well be broken on the back. The finish on the 1911 DWM's was beautiful and durable so it is quite possible it has survived. It may have been an officer's, trainer's or administrator's pistol and seen little use but to hang on a clothes hook in an office. The officers who surrendered in WW2 often turned in old lugers in holsters that they may have carried for many many years. The holster is a much later date, of course. It should not be stored with the luger inside. The leather becomes oil-soaked and/or the luger metal finish is worn or corroded by chemicals/moisture in the leather. The leather should not be messed with except to brush off dust. Any soap, oil, goo or other stuff you slather on it will darken and devalue it substantially. To date, there is no known treatment that aids this kind of leather but there are multitudes of treatments that will damage it. The luger sounds like a great gun but shooting it is rolling the dice in an expensive way. I have seen lugers that could have been safely fired had the grips been switched with some replacements for shooting purposes and the firing pin replaced with a generic new pin for the same purpose. Unfortunately, broken firing pins and broken grips (these are serial numberd to your pistol if original) take that $1100 pistol and make it a $350 conversation piece. That IS how much a broken firing pin or ruined grips will lower the value. Tell your buddy he MAY have a luger worth over $1000 but only an inspection by a luger expert can be sure.. Dave

02-26-2001, 06:51 PM	#5
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Jason, look I the Classifieds (to the left margin) Tom Heller has a few for sale. If you have a Federal Firearms License AIM Surplus, Southern Ohio Guns (SOG), Ralph Shattuck are all suppliers of "Shootable" Lugers. If you don't have one, then any sporting goods store, that's not a chain store might help you (for a fee). Good Luck.

02-27-2001, 12:48 PM	#6
Jason Dubois Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks Again Thanks again Frank and Mac, I didn't know about the grip and firing pin problems. I definately won't try shooting this gun. My buddy probably wouldn't be to happy if I gave his Luger back with a broken grip. My next question was going to be about the holster. Somebody suggested Pecard's leather treatment, but I may just leave well enough alone. I will not store the pistol in the holster. Also I may put something through the belt loops to keep them from being crushed flat from the holster laying on them. Any suggestions on what to use? (obviously something that won't react with the leather). Thanks guys, Jason

02-27-2001, 01:14 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Re: Holster Belt loop storage A piece of plexiglas with the edges rounded and the appropriate size should maintain the belt loops without having an adverse reaction with the leather. Do not keep the holster in too dry an environment to prevent dry rot. Don't use the strap closure it any more than necessary unless it very pliable. At this age it will wear out rapidly.