KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK

Ray · 11-04-2001, 07:09 PM

Hi Guys,

I've got a 95% mint original 9mm BYF 41 KU marked Luger with Luftwaffe acceptance stamps and the orig holster with a matching magazine. I've just been offered $2000 for it from a collector but I've read that there are only 300 of these guns known to have been made. Figuring on how many were lost, destroyed, captured, thrown away and used, there can't be a whole lot of these floating around in original mint condition.

The details of the gun are:

BYF 41, 4" 9mm, SN 169xKU, All matching, PO8 on left side of frame under toggle, blued safety, trigger, mag release and takedown lever. It has a stock lug, mint factory checkered walnut grips, Luftwaffe acceptance stamp on right side of the upper slide, FXO eagle 37 aluminum bottom mag w/matching numbers to the gun and I'd be suprised if this gun has been fired more than 50rds.

It has edge wear on the front of the barrel, high point edge wear of the slide, frame and trigger guard and there's blue wear on the takedown plate high point. Inside, it looks like it's been only test fired.

The holster is a dark brown with white thread and the leather is intact with no cracks or tears. It's marked

FR. Offerman & Sohne Bensbe 1940 and next to it is stamped an eagle holding a swastika with WaA727. It has the orig tool, extra mag pouch on the front and it's in excellent orig condition.

I'd greatly appreciate any input the members of this board can provide and I also have the uniform from the gentleman who brought it back from Europe. He was a sargent with the 502nd PIR and he made 4 combat jumps during the war.

Thanks, Ray

11-04-2001, 11:17 PM

Ray,

I was being polite, He was really looking for a "SUCKER".

I'm glad to see you looking for information, As I think you have a very desirably "Collector Item" and as a group seldom matched.

ViggoG

Marvin · 11-05-2001, 08:32 AM

Ray,

I don't know what this entire rig would be worth, but a standard "KU" without matching magazine in 93-95% condition is normally being sold by dealers at approx. $1800+.

With the original mag., holster, and tool, yours is worth considerably more! I hope others can give you a better price range for the rig.

Marvin

11-05-2001, 11:01 AM

Ray, I don't know where you got your figure of only 300 KU lugers being produced, But Gibson in his "The KH Luger" book estimates productions at about 5000. This makes sense to me as Mauser supplied KH with all of their spare parts, after their 1942 switchover to the P38, so that KH could fulfill their second 10,000 gun contract to the Luftwaffe. Gibson does show pistol #1696KU as having been observed prior to publishing his book in 1980. Tom h.

John Sabato · 11-05-2001, 12:00 PM

As nice as you make it sound, Dok may want to use it for Luger of the Month!

-regards,

John

Ray · 11-05-2001, 12:02 PM

Hi Tom,

I showed this gun & rig to a gentleman who's got a museum & very large collection of nazi arms and he's the one who told me that there were only 300 of the KU guns produced. This gun only has a Luftwaffe acceptance stamp on the right side of the slide and there's no other proof stamps on it. My gun is 2 away from the SN that you tell about in Gibson's book and I'm wondering if the SN for the KU was started at #1.

I read that the KU guns were produced with spare parts at the end of the production run, but I'm wondering how there could be 5000 KU guns in existence, if they were made at the end of production with spare parts. It seems to me that the nazis were so efficient, that if they had so many parts left, why wouldn't they have made them into a standard BYF gun, instead of giving the parts away for someone else to make a complete gun.

Again......I've heard so many different things from so many different guys about this gun but I'm always appreciative for everyone's input and help. As anal as the nazis were about keeping minute records about everything, it's amazing to me how there's so many different theory's about the KU guns.

Thanks again for all of your help,

Ray

bill m · 11-05-2001, 04:21 PM

Hi,

The KU variations are one of the most faked Lugers. There are 4 specific different variations, and then a couple of very unusual variations. There are KU's with a suffix and with a prefix, with 42 on the toggle or byf. Even a few with the S/42, or a 1940 date. Some have Large serial numbers and some have normal sized ones. According to the book "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Randal Gibson, your gun is a 16XXKU and has a byf toggle and was about 2700 made.

11-06-2001, 10:33 AM

Ray, You are correct that the KU series of Kreighoff assembled Mauser parts did begin at s/n 1 and up to about 5000. The way I've alway heard it, Mauser was switching their PO8 production line over to P38 production in late 1942, but as part of their standard contract with the government for the PO8, in addition to the pistols produced, they also had to make a certain amount of spare parts for repair of these PO8s. I'm sure that Mauser didn't relish the idea of dabling in the PO8 business once they stopped producing them, so at the request of FM H.Goering, a KH stock holder, they were happy to give/sell their spare parts to KH, so that the Luftwaffe could get their pistols faster. Lw lugers were issued primarily to AAA batteries, since these personnel were sometimes close to enemy ground action and were not equipted with rifles. Most flight crewmen, were issue foreign made (CZ,FN,FEG,etc) 32 pistols strickly for survival purposes, in case they were shot down. Tom

Jay_123 · 11-08-2001, 12:05 AM

Dear ALl: I think I have this BYF 41. It was given to me just today be an 87 year old man who was in WWII. He told me he got it from a German LT. who he took as a prisoner.

The gun has the followingmarkings:

No. 41 on the top of the gun. the number 52 stamped on several locations of the hand gun, "byf" in small letters on the top, 2 german eagles on the frame(right side) they are an eagle with the number 136 on the bottom of the eagle 1 with the german symble. Then there is another one on the barrel.

when you slide the "safety lever" it has the word "GESICHERT" UNDER THELEVER.

the holster is black, has a second magazine on the top and some kind of tool inside.

the holster says "RYFFEL & BORNS" on the back. the two words are printed like an arch with the word"Hannover" in the middle. just below that is the year 1936.

Any help you could give would be great.

Jay/COnnecticut

11-04-2001, 11:17 PM	#2
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: HE WAS LOOKING FOR A GIFT Ray, I was being polite, He was really looking for a "SUCKER". I'm glad to see you looking for information, As I think you have a very desirably "Collector Item" and as a group seldom matched. ViggoG

11-05-2001, 08:32 AM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Ray, I don't know what this entire rig would be worth, but a standard "KU" without matching magazine in 93-95% condition is normally being sold by dealers at approx. $1800+. With the original mag., holster, and tool, yours is worth considerably more! I hope others can give you a better price range for the rig. Marvin

11-05-2001, 11:01 AM	#4
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Ray, I don't know where you got your figure of only 300 KU lugers being produced, But Gibson in his "The KH Luger" book estimates productions at about 5000. This makes sense to me as Mauser supplied KH with all of their spare parts, after their 1942 switchover to the P38, so that KH could fulfill their second 10,000 gun contract to the Luftwaffe. Gibson does show pistol #1696KU as having been observed prior to publishing his book in 1980. Tom h.

11-05-2001, 12:00 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Sounds like a GREAT Luger...How about posting some photos of the rig As nice as you make it sound, Dok may want to use it for Luger of the Month! -regards, John

11-05-2001, 12:02 PM	#6
Ray Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 127 Thanks: 2 Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts	Re: KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Hi Tom, I showed this gun & rig to a gentleman who's got a museum & very large collection of nazi arms and he's the one who told me that there were only 300 of the KU guns produced. This gun only has a Luftwaffe acceptance stamp on the right side of the slide and there's no other proof stamps on it. My gun is 2 away from the SN that you tell about in Gibson's book and I'm wondering if the SN for the KU was started at #1. I read that the KU guns were produced with spare parts at the end of the production run, but I'm wondering how there could be 5000 KU guns in existence, if they were made at the end of production with spare parts. It seems to me that the nazis were so efficient, that if they had so many parts left, why wouldn't they have made them into a standard BYF gun, instead of giving the parts away for someone else to make a complete gun. Again......I've heard so many different things from so many different guys about this gun but I'm always appreciative for everyone's input and help. As anal as the nazis were about keeping minute records about everything, it's amazing to me how there's so many different theory's about the KU guns. Thanks again for all of your help, Ray

11-04-2001, 07:09 PM	#1
Ray Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 127 Thanks: 2 Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts	KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Hi Guys, I've got a 95% mint original 9mm BYF 41 KU marked Luger with Luftwaffe acceptance stamps and the orig holster with a matching magazine. I've just been offered $2000 for it from a collector but I've read that there are only 300 of these guns known to have been made. Figuring on how many were lost, destroyed, captured, thrown away and used, there can't be a whole lot of these floating around in original mint condition. The details of the gun are: BYF 41, 4" 9mm, SN 169xKU, All matching, PO8 on left side of frame under toggle, blued safety, trigger, mag release and takedown lever. It has a stock lug, mint factory checkered walnut grips, Luftwaffe acceptance stamp on right side of the upper slide, FXO eagle 37 aluminum bottom mag w/matching numbers to the gun and I'd be suprised if this gun has been fired more than 50rds. It has edge wear on the front of the barrel, high point edge wear of the slide, frame and trigger guard and there's blue wear on the takedown plate high point. Inside, it looks like it's been only test fired. The holster is a dark brown with white thread and the leather is intact with no cracks or tears. It's marked FR. Offerman & Sohne Bensbe 1940 and next to it is stamped an eagle holding a swastika with WaA727. It has the orig tool, extra mag pouch on the front and it's in excellent orig condition. I'd greatly appreciate any input the members of this board can provide and I also have the uniform from the gentleman who brought it back from Europe. He was a sargent with the 502nd PIR and he made 4 combat jumps during the war. Thanks, Ray

11-05-2001, 04:21 PM	#7
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Hi, The KU variations are one of the most faked Lugers. There are 4 specific different variations, and then a couple of very unusual variations. There are KU's with a suffix and with a prefix, with 42 on the toggle or byf. Even a few with the S/42, or a 1940 date. Some have Large serial numbers and some have normal sized ones. According to the book "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Randal Gibson, your gun is a 16XXKU and has a byf toggle and was about 2700 made.

11-06-2001, 10:33 AM	#8
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: KU Marked BYF 41 Vet Bring Back WTK Ray, You are correct that the KU series of Kreighoff assembled Mauser parts did begin at s/n 1 and up to about 5000. The way I've alway heard it, Mauser was switching their PO8 production line over to P38 production in late 1942, but as part of their standard contract with the government for the PO8, in addition to the pistols produced, they also had to make a certain amount of spare parts for repair of these PO8s. I'm sure that Mauser didn't relish the idea of dabling in the PO8 business once they stopped producing them, so at the request of FM H.Goering, a KH stock holder, they were happy to give/sell their spare parts to KH, so that the Luftwaffe could get their pistols faster. Lw lugers were issued primarily to AAA batteries, since these personnel were sometimes close to enemy ground action and were not equipted with rifles. Most flight crewmen, were issue foreign made (CZ,FN,FEG,etc) 32 pistols strickly for survival purposes, in case they were shot down. Tom

11-08-2001, 12:05 AM	#9
Jay_123 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TX Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Sounds like a GREAT Luger...How about posting some photos of the r Dear ALl: I think I have this BYF 41. It was given to me just today be an 87 year old man who was in WWII. He told me he got it from a German LT. who he took as a prisoner. The gun has the followingmarkings: No. 41 on the top of the gun. the number 52 stamped on several locations of the hand gun, "byf" in small letters on the top, 2 german eagles on the frame(right side) they are an eagle with the number 136 on the bottom of the eagle 1 with the german symble. Then there is another one on the barrel. when you slide the "safety lever" it has the word "GESICHERT" UNDER THELEVER. the holster is black, has a second magazine on the top and some kind of tool inside. the holster says "RYFFEL & BORNS" on the back. the two words are printed like an arch with the word"Hannover" in the middle. just below that is the year 1936. Any help you could give would be great. Jay/COnnecticut