Beechwood Luger Grips

[Luke]

I think I read somewhere that some of the wooden grips for Lugers were made of beechwood rather than walnut. Am I correct in this? I have a set which appears to be much lighter in color and less dense than walnut, and I am sure that they are NOT repros. Thanks for your help.

[tom]

Yes, beechwood was used as grip material; it is most commonly found on later WWI pieces.


Hope this helps.


Tom

[Luke]

These appear to fit the Mauser frame much better than the DWM, leading me to believe that they are WW-II types.

Could some of the walnut grips have been made from walnut SAPWOOD, the outer layer of the tree? Walnut sapwood is much lighter in color than the brown wood we usually see, sometimes approaching the color of clear maple.

Since I'm not wood expert, I'd like to hear what GT has to say about this, but I've seen more light colored grips on 41 & 42 BYFs, that anywhere else. Tom h

[Thor]

Harry Jones and Charlie Kenyon bought report late WWI, 1917-1918, Lugers had some of these on them. Light beech or unstained walnut grips. I have noticed quite a few 1920 Commercials display this grip also! Thor

[Luke]

[G.T.]

Hi Thomas! I believe the woods used in P.08 grip and mag. bottom production were primarily walnut, with beech (very seldom) used as a secondary substitute material. I once acquired samples from a bunch of different colored pre 1945 Mauser stocks & Luger mag. bottoms. The colors ran from blond to blood red...I sent them to the U.S. Department of Agriculture for identification....The results were interesting, all the stocks, and almost all the mag. bottoms, regardless of color, were European Walnut! The only exceptions in the whole bunch, was all the samples from "GERMANY" marked mag. bottoms, they were all European Beechwood! I was almost certain that some of the lighter rifle stocks would be of a wood other then walnut, but not so....they were all walnut! The color is not a characteristic that you can depend on for identification of these woods, any wood other then walnut, on a P.08, would be a rare exception! till....later....G.T.

[Johnny Peppers]

Many of the early Mauser contract rifles had very blond walnut stocks. Many exhibited a beautiful "fiddleback" grain.

[G.T.]

Hi Johnny! That is very true! When I have stripped some of the early stocks, I have found some beautiful figure and color, but the most interesting feature I have found in all the early wood, is the density and grain structure....It is a feature that is unavailable on todays farm grown hardwoods! My research leads me to believe, there is no substitute for old European Walnut!! till....later...G.T.

[Luke]

Walnut sapwood, the outer layer of the tree, sometimes is as light colored as maple.

[Luke]

I was unable to find any information on beech grips in Jan Still's books, but the Kenyon book, "Lugers at Random," lists beech as an alternative wood on:


The 1914 model DWM standard military Lugers,

The 1914 model DWM and Erfurt Artillery Lugers,

The 1914 model Navys,

Double dated DWM & Erfurt, and

Several of the 1920 models.


Could be others I missed. But, I found no reference to WW-II Lugers and beech grips.

[Johnny Peppers]

The wood is definitely not sapwood. As GT indicated, the grain structure is much too dense for sapwood, and sapwood displays no figure. The wood is so dense that it takes on a polish with use.

[G.T.]

Hi Luke! I think that it would be very possible! I would believe as long as the wood behaved correctly in the machines and fixtures, and a good part could be made, they would not pay to much attention to the color. I feel both heartwood and sapwood would produce good parts! I would like to send in some more samples, but it is hard to find disposable samples that are known to be correct for a certain variation. You wouldn't want to destroy a nice set of 1920 commercial grips off a nice P.08, just to find out the type of wood used!! Perhaps some of the other members have researched this, and have some theories? till....later...G.T.

[G.T.]

Hi Johnny! I think you and I have a little different idea of sapwood! I have seen walnut blanks that are both, or half & half, dark heartwood and light sapwood....the term sapwood when used in this instance doesn't denote any (or very little) difference in density....just difference in color....as opposed with the term sapwood denoting soft or spongy wood.....I don't think they used a sub quality wood regardless of color or type!....if I have been misleading in this discription, I apoligize! till...later...G.T.

[G.T.]

Sometimes when discussing a certain topic, two different views of the same topic can become very confusing! In the threads above, the discussion of walnut sapwood and heartwood of the same (light) color, have been viewed as one and the same (mostly my fault!) Here is my view on the walnut heartwood... Old European Walnut, naturally grown in certain high, cold climates exhibits a grain structure, density and color that cannot be reproduced by todays tree farming methods! The color in this type of walnut can run from a white blond to almost black, although the most common colors are brown, brown/red...these utilitarian woods usually show little or no figure, with an occasional piece, or run of parts, showing some figure, and once in a great while, a beautifully figured piece turns up....I don't believe the people who used this wood made any distinction between light and dark, or, plain and figured wood! But I do believe they were very critical when selecting clear, dense blanks with no voids or flaws....for this wood, (the type Johnny is talking about!) there is absolutely no replacement, and absolutely no supplement!


Walnut sapwood on the other hand, (what I have seen!) is usually quite light, generally white,...and depending on the age and cut of the blank, can be quite dense...do I think they used this type of wood? Probably not on purpose, and definitly not if they had a large supply of top grade wood to work with...but, there are always exceptions, if the sapwood was part of a large dimensional blank, or if they were low on stock, or if they were desperate for parts....they would use it with out blinking an eye! But, I do not feel the light colored grips and mag. bottoms are sapwood...I feel that they are light colored (stained)walnut, or as I said earlier, in some instances, beech....I hope this makes this a little clearer, and I apoligize for any misinformation I may have stated with my theories!!! till...later...G.T.

[Luke]

Great discussion, G.T. Thanks.

From my experience in general woodworking, I can tell you that it is becoming very hard to find good walnut. Common walnut, with lots of unattractive grain showing, is plentiful; but the dark, dense stock is hard to come by. Last year I found a piece which was clear, dark, and dense - 1"x12"x10' -for $50 which I bought in a heartbeat, nothing since then.


I notice that the Nill grips, while providing a great mechanical fit, are made of the more common, unattractive (IMHO) walnut.

[Johnny Peppers]

Sapwood is by definition the soft wood just underneath the bark of a tree. The coloration of the wood would not necessarily mean that it was sapwood as evidenced by the extremely blond walnut found on many early Mauser rifles. The manner in which the blanks were originally cut, whether slab sawed or quarter sawed, will also be an indication of whether the wood actually contains any sapwood.