Early 1920's commercial or just early?

[JTV]

Can you help with identifying this Luger pistol, which I just bought? Is it early 1920's commercial model? It's 7.65-mm caliber. Serial number is four-digit number (91XX) with separate number (9) below the serial number. All serial numbers are matching (including magazine) and some parts (rear of the toggle and trigger plate) have that same 9 marked under the last two digits of serial number. Also, this pistol have no shoulder stock attachment lug or grip safety. There is the usual DWM marking on top of the toggle. "Crown N" test proofs on barrel, frame and receiver. Left side of the first part of toggle has a weird symbol resembling a tree or achor or something (drawing of it attached). Safety is marked GESICHERT. Inside front part of frame next to axle of takedown lever is marking "G 07"

Jarkko

[Dwight Gruber]

Jarkko,

Welcome to the Forum.

The figure on the breechblock is a proof eagle associated with DWM military production. The 9 under the serial numbers is distinctly unusual. If possible, please show us photos of the c/Ns on the frame and receiver, the rear of the grip where the stock lug would be, the area of the right side of the frame just above and behind the trigger, and the top of the toggle train.

--Dwight

[JTV]

Thanks Dwight. Attached are the additional photos you asked. As you notice in left side of the receiver the area from trigger to safety switch is somewhat rough, so the markings there are bit more difficult to read. As far as I can tell the finish seems original and while swetty palms of previous owner(s) have done their thing to it in both front and rear of the grip, IMHO there is still enough finish left there to indicate that this frame never had a stock attachment lug.

Jarkko

[Lugerdoc]

The horizontal C/Ns on the left frame & receiver are typical of Kreighoff reworks of the Weimar era. The "9"s below the serial are not typical of KH. I have seen "9 in a circle" frequently used as a Portugese inspector's marking. TH

[Dwight Gruber]

Jarkko,

Thanks for the additional pics.

From the placement of the serial numbers, the breechblock proof, and the nature of the commercial proofs, this Luger can be identified as a military P08 which has been commercialized after the war (and properly has no grip safety). The chamber date and military proofs on the right receiver appear to have been removed.

I will opine differently from my friend Lugerdoc's conclusion about it's rework origin. Many small shops were capable of reworking Lugers; the position of the c/N proofs indicate only that the gun was re-proofed in Suhl (rather than Berlin) after having been re-barrelled. The absence of a c/N stamp on top of the breechblock is unusual.

The play of light reflecting on the frame below the serial number suggests that a letter suffix has been removed. It is the sheerest speculation to suggest that the 9 might be stamped to serve in its place.

I would say that the stock lug has been skillfully removed from the frame. The surface profile of the rear grip strap has been artfully formed and smoothed to disguise its removal. Several of the details of the removal can be identified by an experienced eye (if I can find the photographic comparison I did awhile back I will post it), but one obvious clue is the sharp juncture of the finish at the top of the grip strap.

The original presence of a stock lug indicates production after late 1913; the unrelieved sear bar indicates production before early 1916. It is not possible to identify the origin any closer, nor to know when the conversion was made.

--Dwight

[JTV]

Thanks for the both of you. This information really helped a lot.

Jarkko