Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck

Aaron · 11-12-2001, 11:58 AM

For those of you who were involved with the original posting about my 1941 Luger with out of sequence S/42 toggle, I consulted with Ralph Shattuck. Ralph sent me a most amazing reply as follows:

"This is a 100% Correct LUGER and more valuable then a Black-Widow. A OUT of Sequince ( Piss poor spelling ) NOT RUSSIAN Most Likely assembled in 1943-44."

Needless to say, I am very, very happy with this Luger!

Thor · 11-12-2001, 12:39 PM

Aaron, does this Luger have any special markings on the front of the Trigger guard? Did you purchase this gun from Ralph? Sorry, I forget the particulars! Thanks! Thor

Lonnie Zimmerman · 11-12-2001, 01:32 PM

As the only fellow that thought this was proper, I am GLAD!!!

Johnny Peppers · 11-12-2001, 04:32 PM

I would agree that it is out of sequence. It has post-war Russian grips.

Aaron · 11-12-2001, 05:01 PM

While Ralph didn't say anything about the grips, he didn't pooh pooh them either. I must say they are a perfect fit. If the weapon dates from 43-44, maybe the cruder checkering was just a wartime expediency. I will ask him more about the gun when I see him at the big Reno show at the end of this month (assuming he will be there). To answer Thor's question, there are no special markings on or in front of the trigger guard. The gun was purchased two weekends ago at a little gun show in Yuma. It came with an almost mint 1941 holster and mint FXO mag. Price was $850.

bill m · 11-12-2001, 05:16 PM

Hi,

Did Ralph actually look at the Luger? I'm glad you're happy with this piece and that is the bottom line here. There are lots of different opinions when it comes to collecting and what is correct and what isn't. I personally do not know if this Luger is correct or not, but I have my reservations as anyone can make one of these up at any time. One must remember that neither you, nor I, or Ralph actually knows if this was how your Luger was issued originally, as it is just our opinions. The more one collects, the more reservations one has about any "rare, unusual, or out of sequence" Lugers, as when one is buying them, they become rare and correct, and when one is selling them, they become parts guns and not correct. Enjoy your new Luger.

Aaron · 11-12-2001, 10:31 PM

Ralph only saw detailed photos of the pistol, but he certainly was positive about what he thought of it. I imagine if Jan Still saw it and included it in one of his books, it would be an "accepted" and highly sought after variation. Anyway, someday after I am gone it will probably be placed on the market, and only then will we find out what it is really worth to collectors.

Thor · 11-12-2001, 11:21 PM

Aaron, Jan Still is very reachable by phone (remember he is some 3 hours different than central US) and you can always ask him about it. Another way might be to go to some of the major gun shows like Tulsa, Kansas City, Vegas and perhaps the NAPCA ones and get three or four of these experts (Kenyon, Still, Shattuck, Simpson) etc to look at it up close and personal. I think even Krausewerke has an authenticating service, but I have no way of knowing if his opinion fairs with the Luger community. I would think a propoderance (hell, I dont know how to spell it) of evidence might make you fell better or worse, but you would have a better idea. I think it all comes down how important this issue is to you. I once saw an out of sequence Black Widow that was not cheap but pretty damn stunning. I almost bought it even thinking someone had monkeyed with the serials, it was "that nice" No collection piece but damn nice! If you are really happy with it, so be it, that is the most important thing and after all, a little mystery adds to the excitement.....sometimes. Thor

11-13-2001, 12:40 AM

Aaron: I went through the same thing you are getting now about 3 months ago. I bought an out of sequence (S/42 1940) from AIM turned out it had Kriegoff Brown 1938 Grips on it. Everybody poo pooed it too. But I was happy also for the price I paid.

Thor · 11-13-2001, 01:12 AM

Heck Tracy, the grips were probably worth $200 alone!

bill m · 11-13-2001, 01:51 AM

Hi Tracy, Aaron,

When a question or opinion is asked for, an answer is given to the best of our knowledge. I'm sorry if the answers are not what you wanted to hear. No one is trying to hurt your feelings or put your Luger down deliberately, but rather trying to help you determine what you have as honestly as possible. After all, you asked the question. It is your choice to accept the information given or to reject it. There is a lot of knowledge here on this Forum, and some have a lot of experience learned the hard way. The purpose of answering questions is to share information with others and to hopefully help someone from being taken advantage of. Normally, an answer or opinion is not given unless one feels he can answer the question correctly and help the poster.

Aaron · 11-13-2001, 03:17 AM

Thor, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Like the war against terrorism, this is going to take a long time and be like a second hobby to me. I'll just take the pistol along whenever I go to one of the big shows and gather as many expert opinions as I can. At least it will be a nice conversation piece. Will keep the group informed whenever I learn anything new.

Aaron · 11-13-2001, 03:19 AM

No offense taken whatsoever. Every comment is deeply appreciated.

Marvin · 11-13-2001, 08:17 AM

Aaron,

You are doing the correct thing by asking questions, and taking the pistol to shows and letting other Luger collectors give you their opinions. You may still get varying opinions, but take the suggestions from the most knowledgeable sources. I have a Kreighoff which I purchased that was supposed to be assembled by the American Troops when they entered Suhl. I have given John Dunkle the information on the pistol and he feels it is correct. When I return home, I want to send the pistol to him to get a full evaluation. There is no better way to do an evaluation than to have the pistol in a collectors hand. They can see all the details that don't show up in photos. I hope mine is original and I wish you good luck on making a final determination on yours.

Marvin

11-13-2001, 10:05 PM

You are right I took the chance and bought the baby to see exactly what all the banter was about. Having collected Lugers for over Thirty Five Years and been around the big boys you have to take a chance once in awhile and sometimes you luck out. I have thick skin so all the opinions roll right off. The only thing that gets me riled is when people belittle someone elses collections. See you in Phoenix.

Thor · 11-13-2001, 10:17 PM

Can't wait Bob! Phoenix will be a great trip and fun to meet all my new friends. Thor

11-12-2001, 11:58 AM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck For those of you who were involved with the original posting about my 1941 Luger with out of sequence S/42 toggle, I consulted with Ralph Shattuck. Ralph sent me a most amazing reply as follows: "This is a 100% Correct LUGER and more valuable then a Black-Widow. A OUT of Sequince ( Piss poor spelling ) NOT RUSSIAN Most Likely assembled in 1943-44." Needless to say, I am very, very happy with this Luger!

11-12-2001, 12:39 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Aaron, does this Luger have any special markings on the front of the Trigger guard? Did you purchase this gun from Ralph? Sorry, I forget the particulars! Thanks! Thor

11-12-2001, 01:32 PM	#3
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck As the only fellow that thought this was proper, I am GLAD!!!

11-12-2001, 04:32 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck I would agree that it is out of sequence. It has post-war Russian grips.

11-12-2001, 05:01 PM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck While Ralph didn't say anything about the grips, he didn't pooh pooh them either. I must say they are a perfect fit. If the weapon dates from 43-44, maybe the cruder checkering was just a wartime expediency. I will ask him more about the gun when I see him at the big Reno show at the end of this month (assuming he will be there). To answer Thor's question, there are no special markings on or in front of the trigger guard. The gun was purchased two weekends ago at a little gun show in Yuma. It came with an almost mint 1941 holster and mint FXO mag. Price was $850.

11-12-2001, 05:16 PM	#6
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Hi, Did Ralph actually look at the Luger? I'm glad you're happy with this piece and that is the bottom line here. There are lots of different opinions when it comes to collecting and what is correct and what isn't. I personally do not know if this Luger is correct or not, but I have my reservations as anyone can make one of these up at any time. One must remember that neither you, nor I, or Ralph actually knows if this was how your Luger was issued originally, as it is just our opinions. The more one collects, the more reservations one has about any "rare, unusual, or out of sequence" Lugers, as when one is buying them, they become rare and correct, and when one is selling them, they become parts guns and not correct. Enjoy your new Luger.

11-12-2001, 10:31 PM	#7
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Ralph only saw detailed photos of the pistol, but he certainly was positive about what he thought of it. I imagine if Jan Still saw it and included it in one of his books, it would be an "accepted" and highly sought after variation. Anyway, someday after I am gone it will probably be placed on the market, and only then will we find out what it is really worth to collectors.

11-12-2001, 11:21 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Aaron, Jan Still is very reachable by phone (remember he is some 3 hours different than central US) and you can always ask him about it. Another way might be to go to some of the major gun shows like Tulsa, Kansas City, Vegas and perhaps the NAPCA ones and get three or four of these experts (Kenyon, Still, Shattuck, Simpson) etc to look at it up close and personal. I think even Krausewerke has an authenticating service, but I have no way of knowing if his opinion fairs with the Luger community. I would think a propoderance (hell, I dont know how to spell it) of evidence might make you fell better or worse, but you would have a better idea. I think it all comes down how important this issue is to you. I once saw an out of sequence Black Widow that was not cheap but pretty damn stunning. I almost bought it even thinking someone had monkeyed with the serials, it was "that nice" No collection piece but damn nice! If you are really happy with it, so be it, that is the most important thing and after all, a little mystery adds to the excitement.....sometimes. Thor

11-13-2001, 12:40 AM	#9
Tracy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Aaron: I went through the same thing you are getting now about 3 months ago. I bought an out of sequence (S/42 1940) from AIM turned out it had Kriegoff Brown 1938 Grips on it. Everybody poo pooed it too. But I was happy also for the price I paid.

11-13-2001, 01:12 AM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Heck Tracy, the grips were probably worth $200 alone!

11-13-2001, 01:51 AM	#11
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions and Answers Hi Tracy, Aaron, When a question or opinion is asked for, an answer is given to the best of our knowledge. I'm sorry if the answers are not what you wanted to hear. No one is trying to hurt your feelings or put your Luger down deliberately, but rather trying to help you determine what you have as honestly as possible. After all, you asked the question. It is your choice to accept the information given or to reject it. There is a lot of knowledge here on this Forum, and some have a lot of experience learned the hard way. The purpose of answering questions is to share information with others and to hopefully help someone from being taken advantage of. Normally, an answer or opinion is not given unless one feels he can answer the question correctly and help the poster.

11-13-2001, 03:17 AM	#12
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Thor, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Like the war against terrorism, this is going to take a long time and be like a second hobby to me. I'll just take the pistol along whenever I go to one of the big shows and gather as many expert opinions as I can. At least it will be a nice conversation piece. Will keep the group informed whenever I learn anything new.

11-13-2001, 03:19 AM	#13
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Questions and Answers No offense taken whatsoever. Every comment is deeply appreciated.

11-13-2001, 08:17 AM	#14
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Aaron, You are doing the correct thing by asking questions, and taking the pistol to shows and letting other Luger collectors give you their opinions. You may still get varying opinions, but take the suggestions from the most knowledgeable sources. I have a Kreighoff which I purchased that was supposed to be assembled by the American Troops when they entered Suhl. I have given John Dunkle the information on the pistol and he feels it is correct. When I return home, I want to send the pistol to him to get a full evaluation. There is no better way to do an evaluation than to have the pistol in a collectors hand. They can see all the details that don't show up in photos. I hope mine is original and I wish you good luck on making a final determination on yours. Marvin

11-13-2001, 10:05 PM	#15
Tracy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck You are right I took the chance and bought the baby to see exactly what all the banter was about. Having collected Lugers for over Thirty Five Years and been around the big boys you have to take a chance once in awhile and sometimes you luck out. I have thick skin so all the opinions roll right off. The only thing that gets me riled is when people belittle someone elses collections. See you in Phoenix.

11-13-2001, 10:17 PM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Out of Sequence Luger Revisited by Ralph Shattuck Can't wait Bob! Phoenix will be a great trip and fun to meet all my new friends. Thor