Black Widow?

JorgeO · 12-02-2008, 07:43 AM

Hello,

Could someone explain what is different in it (besides the Mouser manufacture?)

Thanks,

alvin · 12-02-2008, 08:31 AM

Looks like this question does not take an expert, so I will try.... in short, it's a sub-variation of wartime made Mauser.

It had "byf" code stamp on the toggle link, the year on chamber was either 41 or 42, the grip panels were made with black plastic. Some byf 41/42 had walnut grips, those are not "black widow", it must have black plastic grips + byf 41/42 to qualify that title.

JorgeO · 12-02-2008, 08:51 AM

Looks like the one I let pass decades ago could be a Black Widow...

I didn't pay any attention to the brand/numbers in it, but it had black plastic grips - ugly to my eyes.

Thanks,

alvin · 12-02-2008, 09:16 AM

I don't have a black widow, but I have a few Mausers in salt blue. I think "ugly or pretty" is just personal taste. In my eyes, salt blued gun is always less attractive than rust blued gun. Salt blued gun does not hide different hardness in steel, and many of them show "soy sauce" type of color. Anyway, as long as it's factory, it's still excellent.

Edward Tinker · 12-02-2008, 09:33 AM

Remember, it is not a true variation, it is simply a Mauser that had black grips on it instead of wood grips. NO OTHER differneces.

Ed

MikeP · 12-02-2008, 04:33 PM

Black Widow is a term coined for a marketing tool.

Years ago, the BYF 41s with darker finish, black grips and black mag bottoms were distained by collectors.

"Real collectors" wanted nice navys, DWMs, etc.
Unit marks, double dates, and Nazi pieces were of lesser consideration.

The BYF 41s were the bottom of the list.
I turned up my nose at several "in the day."

A few years ago the term " Black Widow" was coined by a certain dealer and the race was on.

A similar phenomenon can be seen with the recent popularity of "Last Ditch" really crude Japanese rifles.

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.

JorgeO · 12-02-2008, 05:41 PM

You know, even not intending to have more than one piece in my collection, I think I have a real collector spirit!

Plastic grips are ugly!

RylanBrissette · 12-03-2008, 02:53 AM

I like the black bakelite grips, they look great on Lugers. The wooden grips look nice too, when it doubt buy both

There is something about the all black Luger, with the plastic bottom fxo mag. It is very stylish!

alanint · 12-03-2008, 06:28 AM

Luger in a Tuxedo?

alvin · 12-03-2008, 07:44 AM

Well, since it's a collector assigned nickname, I call it "black beauty". It has a character. If I have a chance, I will buy one. Beware repro grips are popluar in this type.

wlyon · 12-03-2008, 01:23 PM

It would seem like we collectors would get away from this meaninless designation. As long as we keep using it, it will continue. Bill

Edward Tinker · 12-03-2008, 02:00 PM

Bill, couple of years ago, i was really "hot" on debunking this, made comments about it a LOT, just made me look pissy and negative (I felt), so i got away from it.

but I figure if I make slight comments / corrections like the above.... it helps.

Ed

cma22inc · 12-03-2008, 02:22 PM

When I hear "Black Widow" I think "Tanker Garand", "Durganov Style Sniper", etc etc..
I always think here comes a higher price when I ask how much. I've had a few converations at the shows about the nature of certain terms that tend to drive a price up but, have never had any luck bringing them down any when they think they had something "rare" that should fetch a higer price.

I don't even bother anymore I just ask how much then laugh and move on.

I agree with you Ed I think we should gently steer other collectors away from these terms.

My vote is for Jabby.

Just A Black BYf

alvin · 12-03-2008, 08:04 PM

If collect only one Parabellum..... 1900 cannot be wrong, or 1908 1st issue. Just an opinion from my taste.

Zamo · 12-09-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeP

Black Widow is a term coined for a marketing tool.
A similar phenomenon can be seen with the recent popularity of "Last Ditch" really crude Japanese rifles.

Really? I haven't been following Japanese rifles much, but I have a nice Type 99 "Last Ditch" that's been sitting in the basement since Dad brought it back from the War. It is CRUDE. I haven't taken any pictures of it, or put it on my website, but now I just might have to. From what I remember, the rear sight is a block of metal with a hole in it that slips around the barrel...The machining looks like it was done by kindergartners with files and rasps.

This also reminds me of how years ago CYQ P-38's were the least desireable, now they seem to be the hottest commodity.
It is funny how "hype" works, when the bottom of the barrel comes into view, those spoiled apples at the bottom start to look pretty tasty!

Went Blakely · 12-10-2008, 10:55 AM

Hehe i agree about the Tanker Garand and Black Widow comment, how these fantasies grow over time

Personally, i really dont mind the black widow lugers, they look really 'mean' and dark somehow, like a black widow spider i would suppose. I much prefer wood grips also, but hey, give me a mint, matching, widow, with original grips, and i sure as heck wouldn't turn it down

Mauser George · 12-13-2008, 08:32 PM

Some like wood and some like black plastic and I am lucky to have both. Amazing how the black plastic grips push the price way, way up!

George

Quentin · 12-29-2008, 02:22 AM

I bought a '41 byf with black grips ten years ago. I almost passed on it because of the plastic grips but they grew on me and the pistol itself was almost like new. Just couldn't walk away from it and am very happy with it. The term Black Widow doesn't bother me at all, with that deep black salt blue, black grips and magazine and Nazi markings the nickname just seems to fit.

12-02-2008, 07:43 AM	#1
JorgeO User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 28 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Black Widow? Hello, Could someone explain what is different in it (besides the Mouser manufacture?) Thanks,

12-02-2008, 05:41 PM	#7
JorgeO User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 28 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	MikeP You know, even not intending to have more than one piece in my collection, I think I have a real collector spirit! Plastic grips are ugly!

12-03-2008, 01:23 PM	#11
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	It would seem like we collectors would get away from this meaninless designation. As long as we keep using it, it will continue. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

12-10-2008, 10:55 AM	#16
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Hehe i agree about the Tanker Garand and Black Widow comment, how these fantasies grow over time Personally, i really dont mind the black widow lugers, they look really 'mean' and dark somehow, like a black widow spider i would suppose. I much prefer wood grips also, but hey, give me a mint, matching, widow, with original grips, and i sure as heck wouldn't turn it down __________________ Went Blakely

12-02-2008, 08:31 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Looks like this question does not take an expert, so I will try.... in short, it's a sub-variation of wartime made Mauser. It had "byf" code stamp on the toggle link, the year on chamber was either 41 or 42, the grip panels were made with black plastic. Some byf 41/42 had walnut grips, those are not "black widow", it must have black plastic grips + byf 41/42 to qualify that title.

12-02-2008, 08:51 AM	#3
JorgeO User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 28 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looks like the one I let pass decades ago could be a Black Widow... I didn't pay any attention to the brand/numbers in it, but it had black plastic grips - ugly to my eyes. Thanks,

12-02-2008, 09:16 AM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I don't have a black widow, but I have a few Mausers in salt blue. I think "ugly or pretty" is just personal taste. In my eyes, salt blued gun is always less attractive than rust blued gun. Salt blued gun does not hide different hardness in steel, and many of them show "soy sauce" type of color. Anyway, as long as it's factory, it's still excellent.

12-02-2008, 09:33 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Remember, it is not a true variation, it is simply a Mauser that had black grips on it instead of wood grips. NO OTHER differneces. Ed

12-02-2008, 04:33 PM	#6
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Black Widow is a term coined for a marketing tool. Years ago, the BYF 41s with darker finish, black grips and black mag bottoms were distained by collectors. "Real collectors" wanted nice navys, DWMs, etc. Unit marks, double dates, and Nazi pieces were of lesser consideration. The BYF 41s were the bottom of the list. I turned up my nose at several "in the day." A few years ago the term " Black Widow" was coined by a certain dealer and the race was on. A similar phenomenon can be seen with the recent popularity of "Last Ditch" really crude Japanese rifles. There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.

12-03-2008, 02:53 AM	#8
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I like the black bakelite grips, they look great on Lugers. The wooden grips look nice too, when it doubt buy both There is something about the all black Luger, with the plastic bottom fxo mag. It is very stylish!

12-03-2008, 06:28 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Luger in a Tuxedo?

12-03-2008, 07:44 AM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Well, since it's a collector assigned nickname, I call it "black beauty". It has a character. If I have a chance, I will buy one. Beware repro grips are popluar in this type.

12-03-2008, 02:00 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Bill, couple of years ago, i was really "hot" on debunking this, made comments about it a LOT, just made me look pissy and negative (I felt), so i got away from it. but I figure if I make slight comments / corrections like the above.... it helps. Ed

12-03-2008, 02:22 PM	#13
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	When I hear "Black Widow" I think "Tanker Garand", "Durganov Style Sniper", etc etc.. I always think here comes a higher price when I ask how much. I've had a few converations at the shows about the nature of certain terms that tend to drive a price up but, have never had any luck bringing them down any when they think they had something "rare" that should fetch a higer price. I don't even bother anymore I just ask how much then laugh and move on. I agree with you Ed I think we should gently steer other collectors away from these terms. My vote is for Jabby. Just A Black BYf

12-03-2008, 08:04 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	If collect only one Parabellum..... 1900 cannot be wrong, or 1908 1st issue. Just an opinion from my taste.

12-13-2008, 08:32 PM	#17
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Some like wood and some like black plastic and I am lucky to have both. Amazing how the black plastic grips push the price way, way up! George

12-29-2008, 02:22 AM	#18
Quentin User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 124 Thanks: 59 Thanked 11 Times in 4 Posts	I bought a '41 byf with black grips ten years ago. I almost passed on it because of the plastic grips but they grew on me and the pistol itself was almost like new. Just couldn't walk away from it and am very happy with it. The term Black Widow doesn't bother me at all, with that deep black salt blue, black grips and magazine and Nazi markings the nickname just seems to fit.