2 x 1916 DWM markings questions

Zamo · 12-20-2008, 02:36 AM

Can somebody tell me if these markings are "OK" on a 1916 DWM?
First is this serial number stamp on the extractor:

Is being "offset" like that acceptable, or is this an example of "Forced Matching"? Font looks the same as the rest of the pistol.
Secondly, I haven't seen this proof in this location on a DWM before, but I admit I am a noob, and don't have any Imperial Luger books...Yet:

Thank you very much for your enlightened education.
Happy Holidays!

LugerVern · 12-20-2008, 04:51 AM

Zamo

Generally speaking DWM did a better job at stamping SN's than what your seeing.

I don't know about the proof at the rear someone else will need to help you on that.

The gun looks like it has had bluing applied over rust, and the area just above the rear proof looks blued over too.

Pictures can fool us at times but I would be suspect of at least a re blue at some point and not a very good one, maybe cold blue.
That greenish tent you see supports this theory.

Hope this helps

Vern

George Anderson · 12-20-2008, 08:39 AM

Keep it! Rare variation.

Lugerdoc · 12-20-2008, 11:54 AM

The blue and extractor stamping look OK to me. I'd need a better close up on the mark on rear frame to hazard a guess on that. TH

drbuster · 12-20-2008, 12:58 PM

It may be a Prussian Eagle. These are usually found in the front of the trigger guard. If this is a Prussian Eagle and not just an abberrant Imperial Eagle, then you have an unusual variant. I agree with George.

drbuster · 12-20-2008, 01:08 PM

On closer scrutiny, it looks more like an Erfurt military test proof, with the champagne glass in the eagle's right claw and a cross in the left claw. Why an Erfurt proof appears on the rear of a DWM frame is a mystery.

MCNJ · 12-20-2008, 01:30 PM

I have a 1918 Erfurt and it does not have that rear proof..or any proof mark in that location

drbuster · 12-20-2008, 07:49 PM

MCNJ, I have NEVER seen such a proof on the rear of the frame, that is the point. This luger is unusual in that respect. The test proofs are usually on the right side of the receiver and on the barrel near the receiver. It is things like this that make the luger hobby such an interesting endeavor. Costanzo's World of Lugers, on page 330 does not show this proof on the frame rear as well.

LugerVern · 12-20-2008, 10:25 PM

Close up of mark in question.

I wonder if we could get more pictures? I am not convinced this gun has its original finish and it might help chase down the unusual proof.

Vern

Lugerdoc · 12-20-2008, 10:55 PM

The marking about looks like an enlarged Erfurt test fire proof. I too have never seen one this size or in this area of a luger. TH

LugerVern · 12-20-2008, 11:14 PM

If you look closely at the one on the extractor you will see that it was a 4 at an earlier time in its life , you can clearly see the bottom cross. The bottom flat of the one has been added using the side of a concave punch.

This is all based on one picture and some caution must be given on any evaluation from pictures.

Vern

Jan C Still · 12-21-2008, 02:55 AM

Christian
George and drbuster have it right
This 1916 DWM has a Prussian Eagle added to the frame above its lanyard. The usual location is the front of the trigger guard, however other locations are possible. This was to identify Imperial German Army property and prevent theft. Only seven such Prussian Eagle marked Lugers have been reported and these eagles are all the Erfurt style. See pages 257-260 of the book Central Powers Pistols for more detail.

What is the serial number of your Luger?
Thanks
Jan

drbuster · 12-21-2008, 08:52 AM

Thanks Jan for your information here. I now know that the Prussian eagle is the same as the Erfurt military proof eagle. I suppose it is possible that Erfurt replaced a defective extractor at the government factory on this 1916 DWM.

Jan C Still · 12-21-2008, 02:14 PM

drbuster
There are several styles of Prussian Eagle used to stamp Imperial German military pistols for identification purposes.
Jan

Zamo · 12-21-2008, 10:07 PM

It's not mine...yet. It comes with a "+" marked matching magazine, and is all matching, but looks so nice (albeit patina'd, so I think it's orginal), that I am questioning it according to these two marks that raised my eyebrow. The dealer wants $1350. What do you think of that price?
Here are some more pictures:

It looks nice to me, but some of the pictures aren't quite crisp enough to remove doubt.
The grips are s/n matching as well. I am a little concerned by the lack of wear on areas like the side of the front sight barrel flair (what ever that is really called), and the sideplate, which always seem to show SOME wear...I really don't want to buy a previously refinished piece, but it's a remote transaction, and the seller doesn't do a three day inspection...which also has me worried.

tenbears · 12-21-2008, 10:53 PM

The bird on the ass end is right as rain, a rare marked Luger.

LugerVern · 12-21-2008, 11:56 PM

Zamo

Its Christmas time, so I am going to try one more time to show you what is going on with your gun. Yes, that ownership marking on the rear of the frame is pretty cool stuff, but the gun has some issues.

I see no less than 3 different styles of fonts on your gun, its a red flag, doesn't happen very often.

DWM usually used a larger font on the side plate than on the take down lever and sear bar, the gun in question has all three the same.

If your after a nice army Luger Ed has a pretty 1915 for sale on this forums WTS section, for about the same price. While your looking at it, look at the picture showing the take down, side plate and sear bar and compare it to yours. Don't take my word for it, look for yourself.

I really do wish you and everyone else a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Vern

Zamo · 12-24-2008, 02:55 PM

Thanks for the Christmas advice Vern. None-the-less, being an optimist, a gambler, and sometimes a fool, I bought it.

I'm in Washington state, and the seller is an antique shop in Connecticut, and as we here in the Puget Sound are covered in an unusual level of snow (Global warming, no doubt), it will be a couple weeks before I get my sweaty little mitts on it. However, rest assured, at that time I will post a SLEW of good pictures and we can lay some of these concerns to rest.
I spoke with the seller on the telephone, and he addressed most of my concerns, and seemed knowledgable enough. He assured me that he has carefully examined the pistol with a jewelers rouge and there seems to be no evidence of serial number tampering. He is likewise convinced the finish is original.
Words. Words are only that, and I will be the first to admit it, but his answers seemed informed, and his demeanor seemed earnest, and I have seen what .jpg artifacting can do to a picture when you compress it for posting on the internet. I think that this is the case in the photos shown earlier in this thread.
Times are tough. My wife is out of work, and layoffs are all around me. In the grandest tradition, I therefor have no choice but to spend $1300 on a questionable Luger!

Here are all the pictures I have of it, along with more inane banter and dialog:
1916 DWM pictures

wdavid431 · 12-25-2008, 09:17 PM

Looks great to me. What a very nice and good looking Luger. Congrats, plus I am glad for you that you decided to get it.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-26-2008, 12:53 AM

Zamo..I have to side with Vern on this pistol. There is no known reason these oddly shaped numbers should look like that. In point of fact.. they should NOT.

I agree that it's an interesting piece with the Prussian Eagle on the back and all but a sideplate that has these numbers so unlike the rest of the pistol would make me think twice. Adding in the lack of wear and I am thinking once again.

On the Freaudian slip side I hope you meant Jewelers LOOP not jewelers rouge ...Rouge is what they put on a buffing wheel as a cutting/polishing agent!
Jerry Burney

12-20-2008, 02:36 AM	#1
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	2 x 1916 DWM markings questions Can somebody tell me if these markings are "OK" on a 1916 DWM? First is this serial number stamp on the extractor: Is being "offset" like that acceptable, or is this an example of "Forced Matching"? Font looks the same as the rest of the pistol. Secondly, I haven't seen this proof in this location on a DWM before, but I admit I am a noob, and don't have any Imperial Luger books...Yet: Thank you very much for your enlightened education. Happy Holidays! __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm

12-20-2008, 11:54 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The blue and extractor stamping look OK to me. I'd need a better close up on the mark on rear frame to hazard a guess on that. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-20-2008, 01:30 PM	#7
MCNJ User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	rear proof I have a 1918 Erfurt and it does not have that rear proof..or any proof mark in that location

12-20-2008, 10:55 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The marking about looks like an enlarged Erfurt test fire proof. I too have never seen one this size or in this area of a luger. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-21-2008, 10:07 PM	#15
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	It's not mine...yet. It comes with a "+" marked matching magazine, and is all matching, but looks so nice (albeit patina'd, so I think it's orginal), that I am questioning it according to these two marks that raised my eyebrow. The dealer wants $1350. What do you think of that price? Here are some more pictures: It looks nice to me, but some of the pictures aren't quite crisp enough to remove doubt. The grips are s/n matching as well. I am a little concerned by the lack of wear on areas like the side of the front sight barrel flair (what ever that is really called), and the sideplate, which always seem to show SOME wear...I really don't want to buy a previously refinished piece, but it's a remote transaction, and the seller doesn't do a three day inspection...which also has me worried. __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm Last edited by Zamo; 12-21-2008 at 10:13 PM. Reason: felt like it...

12-20-2008, 04:51 AM	#2
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Zamo Generally speaking DWM did a better job at stamping SN's than what your seeing. I don't know about the proof at the rear someone else will need to help you on that. The gun looks like it has had bluing applied over rust, and the area just above the rear proof looks blued over too. Pictures can fool us at times but I would be suspect of at least a re blue at some point and not a very good one, maybe cold blue. That greenish tent you see supports this theory. Hope this helps Vern

12-20-2008, 08:39 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Keep it! Rare variation.

12-20-2008, 12:58 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	It may be a Prussian Eagle. These are usually found in the front of the trigger guard. If this is a Prussian Eagle and not just an abberrant Imperial Eagle, then you have an unusual variant. I agree with George.

12-20-2008, 01:08 PM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	On closer scrutiny, it looks more like an Erfurt military test proof, with the champagne glass in the eagle's right claw and a cross in the left claw. Why an Erfurt proof appears on the rear of a DWM frame is a mystery.

12-20-2008, 07:49 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	MCNJ, I have NEVER seen such a proof on the rear of the frame, that is the point. This luger is unusual in that respect. The test proofs are usually on the right side of the receiver and on the barrel near the receiver. It is things like this that make the luger hobby such an interesting endeavor. Costanzo's World of Lugers, on page 330 does not show this proof on the frame rear as well.

12-20-2008, 10:25 PM	#9
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Close up of mark in question. I wonder if we could get more pictures? I am not convinced this gun has its original finish and it might help chase down the unusual proof. Vern

12-20-2008, 11:14 PM	#11
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	If you look closely at the one on the extractor you will see that it was a 4 at an earlier time in its life , you can clearly see the bottom cross. The bottom flat of the one has been added using the side of a concave punch. This is all based on one picture and some caution must be given on any evaluation from pictures. Vern

12-21-2008, 02:55 AM	#12
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Christian George and drbuster have it right This 1916 DWM has a Prussian Eagle added to the frame above its lanyard. The usual location is the front of the trigger guard, however other locations are possible. This was to identify Imperial German Army property and prevent theft. Only seven such Prussian Eagle marked Lugers have been reported and these eagles are all the Erfurt style. See pages 257-260 of the book Central Powers Pistols for more detail. What is the serial number of your Luger? Thanks Jan

12-21-2008, 08:52 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks Jan for your information here. I now know that the Prussian eagle is the same as the Erfurt military proof eagle. I suppose it is possible that Erfurt replaced a defective extractor at the government factory on this 1916 DWM.

12-21-2008, 02:14 PM	#14
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	drbuster There are several styles of Prussian Eagle used to stamp Imperial German military pistols for identification purposes. Jan

12-21-2008, 10:53 PM	#16
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	The bird on the ass end is right as rain, a rare marked Luger.

12-21-2008, 11:56 PM	#17
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Zamo Its Christmas time, so I am going to try one more time to show you what is going on with your gun. Yes, that ownership marking on the rear of the frame is pretty cool stuff, but the gun has some issues. I see no less than 3 different styles of fonts on your gun, its a red flag, doesn't happen very often. DWM usually used a larger font on the side plate than on the take down lever and sear bar, the gun in question has all three the same. If your after a nice army Luger Ed has a pretty 1915 for sale on this forums WTS section, for about the same price. While your looking at it, look at the picture showing the take down, side plate and sear bar and compare it to yours. Don't take my word for it, look for yourself. I really do wish you and everyone else a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Vern

12-24-2008, 02:55 PM	#18
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Thanks for the Christmas advice Vern. None-the-less, being an optimist, a gambler, and sometimes a fool, I bought it. I'm in Washington state, and the seller is an antique shop in Connecticut, and as we here in the Puget Sound are covered in an unusual level of snow (Global warming, no doubt), it will be a couple weeks before I get my sweaty little mitts on it. However, rest assured, at that time I will post a SLEW of good pictures and we can lay some of these concerns to rest. I spoke with the seller on the telephone, and he addressed most of my concerns, and seemed knowledgable enough. He assured me that he has carefully examined the pistol with a jewelers rouge and there seems to be no evidence of serial number tampering. He is likewise convinced the finish is original. Words. Words are only that, and I will be the first to admit it, but his answers seemed informed, and his demeanor seemed earnest, and I have seen what .jpg artifacting can do to a picture when you compress it for posting on the internet. I think that this is the case in the photos shown earlier in this thread. Times are tough. My wife is out of work, and layoffs are all around me. In the grandest tradition, I therefor have no choice but to spend $1300 on a questionable Luger! Here are all the pictures I have of it, along with more inane banter and dialog: 1916 DWM pictures __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm Last edited by Zamo; 12-24-2008 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Needed to point out the "Good Luck" of this being post 100! Cross your fingers for me! :)

12-25-2008, 09:17 PM	#19
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Looks great to me. What a very nice and good looking Luger. Congrats, plus I am glad for you that you decided to get it. __________________ W David

12-26-2008, 12:53 AM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Zamo..I have to side with Vern on this pistol. There is no known reason these oddly shaped numbers should look like that. In point of fact.. they should NOT. I agree that it's an interesting piece with the Prussian Eagle on the back and all but a sideplate that has these numbers so unlike the rest of the pistol would make me think twice. Adding in the lack of wear and I am thinking once again. On the Freaudian slip side I hope you meant Jewelers LOOP not jewelers rouge ...Rouge is what they put on a buffing wheel as a cutting/polishing agent! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."