Final thought on Artillery Rebuild

11-21-2001, 11:36 AM

OK guys you made your point very well, and have scared the pants off me about rebuilding a Luger into an Artillery model, my final thought and question is, would it be legal to make an Artillery Luger and shoot it, as long as I never attach it to the shoulder stock?

Dok · 11-21-2001, 11:58 AM

I believe that would be OK.

John Sabato · 11-21-2001, 12:24 PM

The criminal act is in assembling the shoulder stock to an non-exempted short barreled pistol to creat the SBR. My recommendation would be to get yourself a Luger frame (try Tom Heller...) that doesn't have a shoulder stock lug and use the lugged frame for another shooter... and save that stock for the legitimate artillery model you will someday buy.

Best to you Rich... Happy Thanksgiving!

-JS

Thor · 11-21-2001, 12:39 PM

Another Thought! When the next generation owns that "Arty" and they attach a shoulder stock to it, without knowledge of what transpired to put that 8" barrel on it, that MIGHT be a problem but who knows what the rules will be then! THOR

lugerholsterrepair · 11-21-2001, 12:56 PM

I have called an ATF office from time to time and gotten advice from an agent. It is not as good as John's suggestion about a ruling but you can glean some useful information that way. The last time was about a shoulder stocked Iver Johnson Game Getter in .22 and .410 as to the legality of this as a legal weapon with or without a shoulder stock since you see quite a few of them at gun shows .They had the opinion that as long as you had one and were not aware of the extreame legality of the configuration they would have a lenient view. Such as you inherited it from your deceased grandfather. However if you were trying to circumvent the law and were aware of what you were trying to get away with that would be a different matter. I agree with all of the members who are telling you what seems to me to be great advice. Look before you leap. Jerry

Kyrie · 11-21-2001, 01:07 PM

Hi Rich,

Yes sir, it would

Problems only crop up when a stock is attached to a non-exempt firearm.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Johnny Peppers · 11-21-2001, 02:52 PM

Jerry,

Marbles made the Game Getter, and it came in different barrel lengths. Some are the legal 16" and some are not. I would not put a lot of stock in what one BATF agent advised in regards to being ignorant of the law. At best the weapon would probably be confiscated, and at worst you could become a new agents trophy.

At one time someone was making barrels for the Game Getters to make them legal length.

Kyrie · 11-21-2001, 04:16 PM

Hi Johnny,

Good news - the MarblesÃ¢?? Game Getter was exempted from the NFA some years ago, and are legal (at least at the Federal level) regardless of barrel length.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Steve · 11-21-2001, 10:30 PM

I would think that in a situation as serious as this, I would not call the BATF. I would write them so I would have their responce in writting and KEEP it. It might not exempt you from prosicution but it would certainly give the prosecuter pause because he (she) would then have to admitt that an agent for the government lied and gave you bad advice.

Johnny Peppers · 11-21-2001, 10:58 PM

Friend of mine collects the Colt pocket pistols. He had found a variation of the Model 1908 that he needed, but the dealer would not ship it on my friends C&R. My friend ask the dealer to get in touch with his nearest ATF office, and sure enough the person he talked with told him the pistol could not be shipped to C&R. Being persistent, my friend called the ATF office and spoke with the same person that had advised the dealer that the pistol could not be shipped. My friend had the page number and paragraph ready and after looking at the page my friend indicated, the ATF agent relented and said it was OK.

As Steve said, a letter is much better than a telephone conversation.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-22-2001, 01:08 AM

I agree with all said concerning this subject, the only thing I was trying to point out was this agent's lenient attitude. I don't think all the folks at the ATF are monsters and certainly one opinion by an agent by phone does not constitute the letter of the law. Should it ever go to court. Just an interesting experience I thought I would pass along. Jerry

Orv Reichert · 11-22-2001, 02:13 AM

I would rather pet a rattlesnake than have anything to do with the ATF.

Their technical office is great...and very knoweldgable folks work there.....but the field agents don't know S___ about guns or their own regs.

They used to bring guns [like an M1 carbine] into a local shop and ask if it was a machine gun?...When they were told 'no', they would say...."Gee...it looks like one?"

Talk to anyone from the FBI or InterPol and they are not impressed at all with them.

BILL · 11-22-2001, 02:26 AM

Just my thoughts, but I think that both the IRS and the BATF are both pretty far down the list of people that I want to ask for advice. Since they both tend to find ways to justify their jobs it seems like the less you deal with them the better off you will be. The Ruby Ridge incident is still too fresh in my mind to think about asking them for any help. One other bit of advice..if the IRS ever knocks on your door and says "We are here to help you.." grab your jacket because you are probably going away for awhile.

11-22-2001, 03:23 AM

Remember, the ATF is part of the IRS!!!

Dok · 11-22-2001, 02:05 PM

Bill wrote:

One other bit of advice..if the IRS ever knocks on your door and says "We are here to help you.." grab your jacket because you are probably going away for awhile.

I think a better course of action might be to bend over, grab your ankles, and kiss your sorry ass GOODBYE.

Thor · 11-22-2001, 03:50 PM

Jerry, my agent here is also extremely willing to help. I was impressed with all my dealings wtih the ATF, but I am really a newbie in this areana. Thor

lugerholsterrepair · 11-22-2001, 10:12 PM

11-21-2001, 11:36 AM	#1
Rich D Guest Posts: n/a	Final thought on Artillery Rebuild OK guys you made your point very well, and have scared the pants off me about rebuilding a Luger into an Artillery model, my final thought and question is, would it be legal to make an Artillery Luger and shoot it, as long as I never attach it to the shoulder stock?

11-21-2001, 11:58 AM	#2
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Final thought on Artillery Rebuild I believe that would be OK.

11-21-2001, 12:24 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Dok's right (it happens frequently) The criminal act is in assembling the shoulder stock to an non-exempted short barreled pistol to creat the SBR. My recommendation would be to get yourself a Luger frame (try Tom Heller...) that doesn't have a shoulder stock lug and use the lugged frame for another shooter... and save that stock for the legitimate artillery model you will someday buy. Best to you Rich... Happy Thanksgiving! -JS

11-21-2001, 12:39 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Dok's right (it happens frequently) Another Thought! When the next generation owns that "Arty" and they attach a shoulder stock to it, without knowledge of what transpired to put that 8" barrel on it, that MIGHT be a problem but who knows what the rules will be then! THOR

11-21-2001, 12:56 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Re: I called the ATF I have called an ATF office from time to time and gotten advice from an agent. It is not as good as John's suggestion about a ruling but you can glean some useful information that way. The last time was about a shoulder stocked Iver Johnson Game Getter in .22 and .410 as to the legality of this as a legal weapon with or without a shoulder stock since you see quite a few of them at gun shows .They had the opinion that as long as you had one and were not aware of the extreame legality of the configuration they would have a lenient view. Such as you inherited it from your deceased grandfather. However if you were trying to circumvent the law and were aware of what you were trying to get away with that would be a different matter. I agree with all of the members who are telling you what seems to me to be great advice. Look before you leap. Jerry

11-21-2001, 01:07 PM	#6
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Final thought on Artillery Rebuild Hi Rich, Yes sir, it would Problems only crop up when a stock is attached to a non-exempt firearm. Best regards, Kyrie

11-21-2001, 02:52 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I called the ATF Jerry, Marbles made the Game Getter, and it came in different barrel lengths. Some are the legal 16" and some are not. I would not put a lot of stock in what one BATF agent advised in regards to being ignorant of the law. At best the weapon would probably be confiscated, and at worst you could become a new agents trophy. At one time someone was making barrels for the Game Getters to make them legal length.

11-21-2001, 04:16 PM	#8
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: I called the ATF Hi Johnny, Good news - the MarblesÃ¢?? Game Getter was exempted from the NFA some years ago, and are legal (at least at the Federal level) regardless of barrel length. Best regards, Kyrie

11-21-2001, 10:30 PM	#9
Steve User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I called the ATF I would think that in a situation as serious as this, I would not call the BATF. I would write them so I would have their responce in writting and KEEP it. It might not exempt you from prosicution but it would certainly give the prosecuter pause because he (she) would then have to admitt that an agent for the government lied and gave you bad advice.

11-21-2001, 10:58 PM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I called the ATF Friend of mine collects the Colt pocket pistols. He had found a variation of the Model 1908 that he needed, but the dealer would not ship it on my friends C&R. My friend ask the dealer to get in touch with his nearest ATF office, and sure enough the person he talked with told him the pistol could not be shipped to C&R. Being persistent, my friend called the ATF office and spoke with the same person that had advised the dealer that the pistol could not be shipped. My friend had the page number and paragraph ready and after looking at the page my friend indicated, the ATF agent relented and said it was OK. As Steve said, a letter is much better than a telephone conversation.

11-22-2001, 01:08 AM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Re: I called the ATF I agree with all said concerning this subject, the only thing I was trying to point out was this agent's lenient attitude. I don't think all the folks at the ATF are monsters and certainly one opinion by an agent by phone does not constitute the letter of the law. Should it ever go to court. Just an interesting experience I thought I would pass along. Jerry

11-22-2001, 02:13 AM	#12
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Calling the ATF I would rather pet a rattlesnake than have anything to do with the ATF. Their technical office is great...and very knoweldgable folks work there.....but the field agents don't know S___ about guns or their own regs. They used to bring guns [like an M1 carbine] into a local shop and ask if it was a machine gun?...When they were told 'no', they would say...."Gee...it looks like one?" Talk to anyone from the FBI or InterPol and they are not impressed at all with them.

11-22-2001, 02:26 AM	#13
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Calling the ATF Just my thoughts, but I think that both the IRS and the BATF are both pretty far down the list of people that I want to ask for advice. Since they both tend to find ways to justify their jobs it seems like the less you deal with them the better off you will be. The Ruby Ridge incident is still too fresh in my mind to think about asking them for any help. One other bit of advice..if the IRS ever knocks on your door and says "We are here to help you.." grab your jacket because you are probably going away for awhile.

11-22-2001, 03:23 AM	#14
The shadow Knows! Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Calling the ATF Remember, the ATF is part of the IRS!!!

11-22-2001, 02:05 PM	#15
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Calling the IRS Bill wrote: One other bit of advice..if the IRS ever knocks on your door and says "We are here to help you.." grab your jacket because you are probably going away for awhile. I think a better course of action might be to bend over, grab your ankles, and kiss your sorry ass GOODBYE.

11-22-2001, 03:50 PM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: I called the ATF Jerry, my agent here is also extremely willing to help. I was impressed with all my dealings wtih the ATF, but I am really a newbie in this areana. Thor

11-22-2001, 10:12 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Re: PARANOIA WILL DISTROYA ,EOM (EOM)