Artillery Barrel Specs???

sheepherder · 02-04-2009, 08:28 PM

(NOTE: This thread was my first post here on Lugerforum, in February of 2009. Since then, Sturgess and Gortz have published their "The Borchardt And Luger Automatic Pistols", a definitive volume containing 14 pages of LP-08 'blueprints', including the artillery barrel. A DVD of the complete works, including full-size 2008 x 3035 pixel photos, many in color, and consisting of 1888 PDF pages is available from Simpson Ltd for $35 and $15 S&H.

Written October 2014 by Rich B. 'sheepherder'/'postino')

Hello!

I'm re-barreling a commercial Luger with what I hope will look like an artillery barrel...I've done barrels before (pic of Lahti below) and have already started on a Luger Artillery barrel...

I can pull the approximate dimensions from pics here and elsewhere, but a "print" would be helpful...Is there one available anywhere online???

Thank You!

sheepherder · 02-10-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

How is the barrel coming?

Quite well, thank you!

Slow...I can only work on my day off, and Sunday...slow...like molasses in...now...

sheepherder · 02-10-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I do have a stripped artillery barrel loose now, if any measurements would be of any help.

Any and all dimensions would be appreciated!

At the present time, I am just copying pics and using the general measurements off a 10cm barrel. And some book extracts.

Quote:

I did not see any chatter marks on the taper, that is always nice huh?

I'll let you know when I start tapering! This is just roughing the general shape out, for now.

I'll turn down the front next, then shape the front sight base. After that, the rear sight "sleeve" and base. That'll kill a day...

John Sabato · 02-11-2009, 11:35 AM

I have never seen a print of the artillery barrel, so if you find one, please let me know.

There is a forum member called Makarov (first name is Vladimir) who has done extensive work in 3D graphics. He has completed a 3D model of the artillery Luger... perhaps you could contact him and see if he can provide you a couple of dimensioned prints to help in your project.

Remarkably, all of his work has been done by reverse engineering prints and graphic images of the Luger. He lives in Russia, where possession of a Luger is forbidden.

You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions... unfortunately, the rear sight base on the artillery model is not included... the CD contains all of the dimensioned prints for the P.08 model.

BTW, where are YOU located?

sheepherder · 02-11-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions...

PayPal transfer completed!

Quote:

BTW, where are YOU located?

I'm in the US.

Pulling the dimensions off an old 9mm barrel + pics from here and Gunbroker.com should be close enough for my loose standards...

sheepherder · 02-11-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not much really to offer...

Quite a bit, I'd say!!! Thank You!!!

Edit: Rick - What do you get for a side-to-side measurement of the rear sight "sleeve"??? Horizontal width, so to speak...

sheepherder · 02-12-2009, 03:55 PM

Still whittling down the excess metal...

John Sabato · 02-12-2009, 05:42 PM

Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have? Just curious.

I have the same Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe as Rick W.

sheepherder · 02-12-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not an easy task, the artillery barrel. Enjoying the pictures.

Yeah, picture shows are fun! I'll be putting these on the CNCGuns site as a sort of How To...

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have?

I had to sell all my real tools (Bridgeport, South Bend, Miller)...This is one of those Chinese 3in1 machines (and a rotary indexing head)...

Cut the lower radius's [radii???] today...

G.T. · 02-12-2009, 07:53 PM

Wow, pretty neat! I really, really like the step by step..... BTW, having Rick W. in your corner is a big plus... he's been there, done that, on most all of the BBL projects... We share the same facination for how the process was done in "The old days!" Looks to me as if you're right on track....More, more, more!

Best to all, til....lat'r....GT

sheepherder · 02-12-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

BTW, having Rick W. in your corner is a big plus... he's been there, done that, on most all of the BBL projects...

Great minds think alike...Perhaps he's my long lost brother...

Cut down the rear sight slot; cut the front sight base...

John Sabato · 02-13-2009, 12:50 PM

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation...

cma22inc · 02-13-2009, 04:37 PM

Ok when are you ramping up production for custom barrels for all our shooters?

J/k

sheepherder · 02-13-2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band...

I'm wondering how I'm going to do that, too...

sheepherder · 02-13-2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not sure if I understand yet...

I know I don't!!!

But thanks for the visual pictures! I'm working from a dozen or so posted pictures, and an old 100mm barrel I have on hand...

I'll keep cutting metal and we shall see what comes out!!!

sheepherder · 02-16-2009, 11:47 AM

I'm looking at John's Blueprint CD (Thank You, Sir!) and I find it puzzling that DWM (and the other P-08 contractors) used 20tpi for their 18mm barrel thread (and 55Ã?Âº for the thread angle instead of 60Ã?Âº)...

20tpi isn't a metric size; John's print clearly shows that the thread pitch is 1.270mm...which works out to 0.04999985in...for comparison, 20tpi is 0.050in...Too close to be coincidence...

And it's not just Germany...The Swedish/Finnish Lahti shown in the first post also uses an 18mm x 20tpi thread...

Does anyone know why the Europeans would use an inch thread pitch??? The closest Metric thread pitch is 1.25mm...Which is quite common...and works out to 0.04921245in...Close, but no cigar...

On an unrelated note, while digging through my parts boxes from the '80's, I noticed that I have one of my home-made 150mm barrels lying around...It's been shot, and I can see some marks from the breech block, but I have no idea why it's still here...the two Lugers I owned back in the mid-'90's both had 150mm barrels on them when I sold them...

I guess it's true...A mind is a terrible thing to waste...

Vlim · 02-16-2009, 02:22 PM

Hi,

The DWM factory, part of Ludwig Loewe & Cie., were involved in standardization processes, a bit of a Loewe hobby, so to say.

Ludwig Loewe himself spent many days in the USA, studying the American production methods and introducing the processes in Germany. This was the forerunner of the later German DIN standardization norm.

In other words: German industrial standardization is based upon American production methods.

Ron Wood · 02-16-2009, 02:44 PM

Actually, the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is the British Whitworth form originally proposed in 1841 and subsequently adopted as the British Standard Whitworth. It was the best standard in Europe at the time and, as noted, used by several/most manufacturers. The American Unified Course standard uses the 60Ã?Âº thread angle. Even the Luger grip screws are Whitworth pattern.

sheepherder · 02-16-2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

...the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is... the best standard in Europe...and...used by several/most manufacturers...

I think I can guesstimate/grind 55Ã?Âº instead of 60Ã?Âº and set my cross feed also...

I got some more done today, along with finishing my taxes...As per popular request, here's more pics...

First pic is cutting the rear sight dovetail; second pic is cutting the front sight dovetail; third is rough cutting the 9mm Parabellum chamber (I use Clymer finish chambering reamer w/high Sulphur content cutting oil; feed in 1/32" at a time, back out & blow chips away)...

sheepherder · 02-16-2009, 07:56 PM

...fourth pic showing some of the chips while chambering; fifth pic shows a re-sized 9mm shell in the new chamber; sixth pic is what we have now...

The rear sight base has been contoured at rear; rear sight base is ~1/10" longer than Luger because I'll be using a shortened Mauser C96 tangent rear sight. Front sight dovetail is 5/16"; smallest I could find, which means my front sight will be fabricated in place. Muzzle and breech have been turned down slightly. Breech (where thread is) is still about 1/8" longer than needed, and thread diameter is still a bit oversize. Chamber will be cut deeper and headspace reamed in when breech is cut to length and barrel is fit to receiver.

I'll start on the front sight blank and rear sight base next.

02-04-2009, 08:28 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Artillery Barrel Specs (NOTE: This thread was my first post here on Lugerforum, in February of 2009. Since then, Sturgess and Gortz have published their "The Borchardt And Luger Automatic Pistols", a definitive volume containing 14 pages of LP-08 'blueprints', including the artillery barrel. A DVD of the complete works, including full-size 2008 x 3035 pixel photos, many in color, and consisting of 1888 PDF pages is available from Simpson Ltd for $35 and $15 S&H. Written October 2014 by Rich B. 'sheepherder'/'postino') Hello! I'm re-barreling a commercial Luger with what I hope will look like an artillery barrel...I've done barrels before (pic of Lahti below) and have already started on a Luger Artillery barrel... I can pull the approximate dimensions from pics here and elsewhere, but a "print" would be helpful...Is there one available anywhere online??? Thank You! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by sheepherder; 10-24-2014 at 12:35 AM.

02-11-2009, 11:35 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I have never seen a print of the artillery barrel, so if you find one, please let me know. There is a forum member called Makarov (first name is Vladimir) who has done extensive work in 3D graphics. He has completed a 3D model of the artillery Luger... perhaps you could contact him and see if he can provide you a couple of dimensioned prints to help in your project. Remarkably, all of his work has been done by reverse engineering prints and graphic images of the Luger. He lives in Russia, where possession of a Luger is forbidden. You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions... unfortunately, the rear sight base on the artillery model is not included... the CD contains all of the dimensioned prints for the P.08 model. BTW, where are YOU located? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-12-2009, 03:55 PM	#7
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Still whittling down the excess metal... Attached Thumbnails

02-12-2009, 05:42 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have? Just curious. I have the same Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe as Rick W. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-12-2009, 07:53 PM	#10
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	art. bbl... Wow, pretty neat! I really, really like the step by step..... BTW, having Rick W. in your corner is a big plus... he's been there, done that, on most all of the BBL projects... We share the same facination for how the process was done in "The old days!" Looks to me as if you're right on track....More, more, more! Best to all, til....lat'r....GT

02-13-2009, 12:50 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-13-2009, 04:37 PM	#13
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Ok when are you ramping up production for custom barrels for all our shooters? J/k

02-16-2009, 11:47 AM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I'm looking at John's Blueprint CD (Thank You, Sir!) and I find it puzzling that DWM (and the other P-08 contractors) used 20tpi for their 18mm barrel thread (and 55Ã?Âº for the thread angle instead of 60Ã?Âº)... 20tpi isn't a metric size; John's print clearly shows that the thread pitch is 1.270mm...which works out to 0.04999985in...for comparison, 20tpi is 0.050in...Too close to be coincidence... And it's not just Germany...The Swedish/Finnish Lahti shown in the first post also uses an 18mm x 20tpi thread... Does anyone know why the Europeans would use an inch thread pitch??? The closest Metric thread pitch is 1.25mm...Which is quite common...and works out to 0.04921245in...Close, but no cigar... On an unrelated note, while digging through my parts boxes from the '80's, I noticed that I have one of my home-made 150mm barrels lying around...It's been shot, and I can see some marks from the breech block, but I have no idea why it's still here...the two Lugers I owned back in the mid-'90's both had 150mm barrels on them when I sold them... I guess it's true...A mind is a terrible thing to waste... Attached Thumbnails Last edited by sheepherder; 02-16-2009 at 11:49 AM. Reason: duh

02-16-2009, 02:22 PM	#17
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The DWM factory, part of Ludwig Loewe & Cie., were involved in standardization processes, a bit of a Loewe hobby, so to say. Ludwig Loewe himself spent many days in the USA, studying the American production methods and introducing the processes in Germany. This was the forerunner of the later German DIN standardization norm. In other words: German industrial standardization is based upon American production methods.

02-16-2009, 02:44 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Actually, the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is the British Whitworth form originally proposed in 1841 and subsequently adopted as the British Standard Whitworth. It was the best standard in Europe at the time and, as noted, used by several/most manufacturers. The American Unified Course standard uses the 60Ã?Âº thread angle. Even the Luger grip screws are Whitworth pattern. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-16-2009, 07:56 PM	#20
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	...fourth pic showing some of the chips while chambering; fifth pic shows a re-sized 9mm shell in the new chamber; sixth pic is what we have now... The rear sight base has been contoured at rear; rear sight base is ~1/10" longer than Luger because I'll be using a shortened Mauser C96 tangent rear sight. Front sight dovetail is 5/16"; smallest I could find, which means my front sight will be fabricated in place. Muzzle and breech have been turned down slightly. Breech (where thread is) is still about 1/8" longer than needed, and thread diameter is still a bit oversize. Chamber will be cut deeper and headspace reamed in when breech is cut to length and barrel is fit to receiver. I'll start on the front sight blank and rear sight base next. Attached Thumbnails