The "Asterisk" Again

[Marvin]

OK folks, I am home for the weekend and have a little more info on the Asterisk. As Richard Nixon stated, "let me make this perfectly clear", this is only a theory I put up for discussion, it does not necesarilly mean I am convinced to be correct as I DON"T KNOW what it means. Anyway, I have the following which is an excerpt from my original thoughts and shows a little about the use of the Runes by the SS. Rmember, this is a guy just sitting around thinking and not trying to convince anyone that this is fact!


My theory, is that this mark deals with the inspection of various components of a weapon by an Allgemeine-SS inspector. This would be in addition to the Waffenampt inspection by the OKH and their subsequent approval by the stamps we are accustomed to seeing. Now, the big question in my theory; why would the Allgemeine-SS be inspecting parts? It is well known that the SS provided labor from the Concentration Camps to the manufacturers of war goods so the Third Reich could maintain an ample supply of finished products because most of the factory workers had been conscripted into military service. One of the units in the Allgemeine-SS organization was Amptsgruppe W ( SS Economics Enterprises, originally formed in 1942 as the SS Wirtschafts-und-Verwaltungshauptamt, or the WVHA under SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Oswald Pohl), and one of the sub units was AMPT IV, Deutsche Ausrustungswerke, or D.A.W. (German Equipment Works), which was under the direction of SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Dr. Hans May. Section 1 of the D.A.W. provided Military Armaments. The SS involvement in the armaments and munitions industry increased as the war progresses, not only for the purpose of supplying the Waffen-SS, but also to assist conventional arms manufacturers by furnishing them cheap labor. The SS made many of its own weapons and technical instrumentation at Auschwitz, Neuengamme, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Lublin and Plaszow, maintained an ordnance testing and repair shop at Stutthof, and melted down scrap cable at Dachau. In addition, aircraft parts assembly was carried out at Flossenburg, Mauthausen and Natzweiler on behalf of the Messerschmitt and Junkers companies. Heinkel contracted the SS to produce hangers for them at Sachsenhausen, gun carriages were repaired at Mauthausen, hand grenades assembled at Sachsenhausen, and industrial diamonds cut at Herzogenbusch and Belsen. Since the SS did maintain high standards for the goods produced by these laborers, it would be logical that an SS inspector would take a sampling of the parts and stamp them with the â??asteriskâ?�, or â??eight pointed starâ?� to prove they were in tolerance or to help alleviate the possibility of sabotage of parts by the forced laborer. This inspection by the SS would help eliminate the purposeful sabotage of work in process and therefore assist the manufacturer maintain his monthly quota.


To further my theory, lets look at where the inspection stamp (â??asteriskâ?�, or â??eight pointed starâ?�) by the SS could have originated. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, runes began to be re-examined by the fashionable â??Volkisch or folkâ?� movements of Northern Europe, which promoted interest in traditional stories, beliefs, and festivals. The Thule Society was among these groups, and through his association with its activities, Himmler began to look back to the mystical Dark Age Germanic period for much of his inspiration. With Himmlerâ??s fascination for cryptic codes, it would be appropriate that he adopt certain runes for use by his SS. All pre-1939 Allgemeine-SS Anwarter were instructed in runic symbolism as part of their training. By 1945, there were fourteen main varieties of runes in use by the SS. I will not go into detail on all them, but the main ones are; The Hakenkreuz, or Swastika, The Sonnenrad, or sunwheel Swastika, and The Hagall-Rune, or our â??asteriskâ?�, or â??eight pointed starâ?�.


Letâ??s deal with The Hagall-Rune; it stood for unshakable faith, which was expected of all SS members. It was featured on the SS deathâ??s head ring as well as on ceremonial accoutrements used at SS weddings. It was also chosen as the sign of the SS-Polizei-Division, since it resembled the traditional â??Police Starâ?� badge. All runes derive from the hexagon. Carrying this symbol gives strength over adversity as it encompasses the total of all the runes. The overall interpretation of this rune is to believe in yourself and you will become the master of everything.


This is my theory for the â??asteriskâ?� that is stamped on many types of armaments produced by manufacturers during the war period. As the war progressed, more and more labor from the Camps were utilized and with the SS being paid for these workers, it would be logical that the SS would be responsible for the quality produced by the laborers.


That is it folks, hope this help clear up somw questions as to the theory. Don't blast me as it is only a theory and I am not trying to convince anyone it is fact.


Marvin

Marvin,

The peices fit the puzzle. Could be the answer.

Hitler was a Freek looking for a "Nordic Justification".

WHO REALLY CAN SAY ?

Opinions are needed ! Facts even more.

Can any one help ?

ViggoG

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

Do you have any proof that the SS furnished forced labor in the Mauser Luger factory? At what positions in the Mauser Luger production were they used? Do you have any proof that forced labor was used in any highly exacting manufacturing proceedures or high tech proceedures of Lugers at Mauser? If this is all correct, they way isn't more "*" found in the byf 41 and 42's than the 1940's, as I'm sure the forced labor issue was worse in 42 than in 1940.


When did the SS "*" come into use? Is the "*" found on Lugers the very same as that used on the rings and other items? Size, style, and contex?


I always thought that Hitler lost faith in the SS and basically, they received left overs from the Army. The Army got first pick and first issue of all the good stuff. This said, in 1940 and 1941, Germany was rolling over everyone in their path, so SS inspections of forced labor makes some sense, but not SS inspections of Mauser produced weapons. Is the "*" found on other Mauser pistols, like the M1934, or HsC variations? Not to my knowledge. Do you think Mauser is going to allow the SS to put a stamp on there products? Not hardly. If that were the case, why have an Army acceptance stamp, and not an "*" stamp to show it was accepted? The "*" is an inspection mark or test mark of some kind, without question in my opinion, but not an acceptance mark, which is a big difference, done by MAUSER. If you are correct, then what were the SS inspecting with this mark on the Lugers anyway, the workmanship? Function? Hardness? Tolernaces? And why is the mark random, actually very scarce? Mauser had the contracts, not the SS, so Mauser was going to be responsible for their product. Do you actually think Mauser was going to put forced labor in positions to disrupt production? Perhaps shoveling coal into a furnance, or dipping parts in a solution, but not any highly skilled positions.


I think you have a very interesting theory here, Marvin, which needs a lot more research to have any merit as being correct. You may be on to something here, but you're going to have to provide some actual facts to some of the questions above as a starting point. I would gladly help you research some of this, but have no idea where to even start. Good luck and thanks for your opinion. Appreciate the effort!

[Marvin]

Bill,


I don't have the answers to your questions and I don't know who would. You know, I just put together a THEORY ONLY on an unanswered question that NO ONE has a definite answer to including all the P.38 and Luger experts. This question was to have a little fun with, and get other opinions as to what the "Asterisk" means. In all my postings I never said this THEORY was the correct answer; I always stated it was a thought I had one day and I did a little research on where the "Asterisk" may have come from and the SS THEORY seemed to be a forced fit.


As to Mauser, what about J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Spreewerk, Walther, and there are several other MAJOR arms manufacturers that have this stamp on their arms. What about these; I DON"T know! You seem to always ask questions that cannot be answered without thousands of hours of research in Germany and the National Archives. It would be fun to do this, but I do have to work and currently only get home once every 3-4 weeks for a couple of days.


I almost wish I had never started thread! I wanted to hear a few opinions from Luger collectors and that is ALL THEY ARE - OPINIONS. I don't plan to persue this theory because there are more informed persons than myself that have not found the answer. Why do you keep asking for FACTS On a THEORY I just put forth for conversation between Luger lovers. I originally posted this on the P.38 Forum and I knew a few Lugers had the same stamp; so why not ask for OPINIONS here. Since all the other THEORYS are not proven, can you provide any FACTS to back-up your THEORY?


As to the SS not having favor with Hitler, they were his favorite, but he had to keep the German Army on his side and he did favor them early. When the war started to go South, the SS was the fighting force that kept the entire military going. The SS was used a a mobile force to plugg holes in the German Wehrmacht lines. Even the Wehrmacht came to depend on the SS. When the SS proved to be the elite force, they were then provided with the best goods that Germany could produce.


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

Sorry to ruffle your feathers. Your theory is an interesting one. I have no facts to back up my opinion, and just tried to repeat what Hallock, Smith, and Kenyon had told me. Different opionions are what makes an interesting thread. I'm sorry I responded. I did not mean to degrade you personally or put you down personally, and do not feel that I have. I commended you on your effort. This is the second time you have posted your theory. Each time they are without evidence to support any of your suggestions. Each suggestion raises more questions, which you have no answers for. So questions are not allowed to be asked? You know Marvin, if you could answer some of these questions, you just might have the correct answer. Answers can prove your theory also, as well as disprove it. Lighten up some buddy!

Like Marvin, I can't imagine the time that could be spent on a thread like this. I wish I was trying for my disertation in history, then I'd have a reason to go for something like that. Whether it is proved or not is still very interesting.


To disprove it would bring out info and to prove it...


Very interesting and without a view from either side it would not be so intersting, so Bill and Marvin, BRAVO! I find this good for discussion!


Ed

[Marvin]

Bill,


No feathers ruffled here, just a very good exchange of information. I do wish someone could find the answer! The reason I reposted about this was that someone in the original thread had asked where I felt the SS had come into play on this theory and while I had no reference material with me in Florida, I had my original info that I posted at home. I only posted again to answer that question. If I had any type proof of any of the theories, I definetly would have posted it here.


It just seems odd that this one stamp has so many authoratative people "in the dark" as to a corect answer, but I guess that is what collecting is all about. Hopefully it will be answered one day.


marvin

As a bad penny keeps coming back, so will the Asterisk.

Until the question brings a proper answer, these nagging questions that demand answers bring the speculation that turn over large rocks.

What occurred during the Nazi Period is far back in history and was in many ways pushed ought of sight so that the wounds might heal.

The wounds are healed and we now look back to find the lost puzzle parts, and it appears that trying new peices into the holes is the only way to see if they fit.

Having been there to some extent I can only speak from my own recollections. Which too may be in error due to the fading past.

However I do seem to recall that the manpower shortages during this time brought desparate measures by the powers that were.

The Nazi's were not fools, and today many truths are coming to light proving that slave labor was used in almost every phase of german industry and this was overseen by the SS Elite Corp. As was the last days when the Wermach was falling apart and the SS Troopers stood with gun in hand and shot any who would quit.

I myself have seen evidence that slave labor was used to produce the most advanced and secret weapons the V-1 & V-2

Bombs. And if used here why not in the arms industries.

Makes sense to me.

Lets not hear demands for proof of theories unless you can show some small evidence to the contrary.

Otherwise you are only suppressing discussion By demanding proof of one who is seeking that very thing.

My $0.02

Just my thoughts and recollections.

ViggoG

[bill m]

Hi Viggo,

With all do respect I can not agree with your comment. Anyone can have a theory, but speculation does not make it correct. You mention in your profile about all your work at NASA, which is very interesting, but I presume you did not speculate about details, but had evidence and facts before you preceeded on a project. The theory was the starting point, to which questions were asked and evidence was then provided to support or contradict.


That is the same with Marvins theory. He speculates about the "*", which raises questions. Questions require answers. I certainly do not feel I have suppressed this thread by asking questions and pointing out different views. If there are no answers to any of the questions, then the theory has no merit. Without merit, it is useless.


So from my humble opinion, questions are good, they do not suppress, but actually enlighten a discussion and help to resolve. If you want a good discussion, you must have more than one point of view.

Bill,

I do not wish to be obstinate but My experience has been in science and all others, that Theory is the pathway to truth.

Off hand discharge of some of my best "works" by others for lack of immediate proof left me in complete control and allowed me to persue them to a fact, this much to the embarrasmment of the "nay sayers" which Included some of NASA's top authorities.

So without proof to the contrary Any theory is better than none and must be allowed to stand until proven wrong.

And unless one of us has a more logical solution to offer we do a dis-service to attempt to crush the very basis for this Forum Which is the free interchange of thought with the hope that we all will improve our Knowledge by assisting in the verbal investigation and not by demanding that the final end be produced before the middle.

My Personal experience and feeling, You are certainly right to question where no proof exists but the word is question not condemn.

ViggoG

[bill m]

Hi Viggo,

Hmmmm, well, I did not think I was condemning. This whole discussion is just pure non-sense now. You know Viggo, I think this theory has a lot of holes in it and it isn't correct. That is my opinion. There are too many questions that point to another answer. If asking questions and pointing out other views is condemning, if not agreeing is condemning, then I'm sure guilty as charged. Marvin's question has been asked many times with the general opinion that it is a hardness test done at random in batches from 10 to 100. Is the "*" the hardness test? You say no. Was the barrel checked some other place for hardness? You do not know and either do I. Is the hardness theory the correct one? We do not know. I think it is, but you do not and have stated so, so are you questioning or condemning me and my opinion? There was another theory a while back about black plastic grips and when they came into use. We supplied an answer based on collected data, which was not accepted. A German gave a bull**** story, which was repeated, and it became fact and was even suggested to be added in the tech. division. The German story proved to be completely fabricated. So Viggo, you believe any bull**** story you want to, as they soon grow to be fact, but as for me, I want evidence and proof to support any new theory. I feel you have taken my comments completely out of context and twisted my intentions into something they were never intended to do, especially with your comments about condemning, and disrupting the discussion.

Bill,

I think that you are missing the point.

A Theory Is just that A mans personal view of the sum of his own knowledge, No Proof is required as evidence thereof.

If no proof can be shown to the contrary then the theory stands as just that a theory.

If you demand that a man prove his theory then you do not understand that a theory that is proven true is no longer a theory IT THEN BECOMES A FACT and no theory exists.

It is you to whom it becomes incumbent to show proof that the theory has no basis.


I am a U S Veteran of WW-2 and alife long Civil Servant, Where my co-workers were also Mostly Veterans.

I have viewed History with my own eyes and when I say that I have seen and heard evidence that certain war atrocities happened It is only because I have seen Photografic and historic conclusive proof.

I can say with certainty that Hitlers SS Elite Guard Was deeply Involved in runic symbolism it is on every German WW-2 flag and appears on much of the SS flags and such.

I have seen evidence and none of which disproves the "theory". And contrawise I have seen no hard evidence to disprove the "theory"

If you have evidence that the "theory" is in error then produce your facts. Yes I said "Facts to the contrary".

If you have none then you are out of place in the discussion.

You have a perfect right to your own Opinion as to any matter, and so has the other guy.

The Forum by definition is a place of learning through the exchange of ideas.If you seek Proof then the Library is the place where you can through deep study find the truth and facts.

Please remain as a contributor to the Forum I feel that you can add to the collective group Knowledge.

Lets not try to suppress speculation without evidence of error, If we are wrong show us our error with facts.


PS: As for your questioning The Hardness test theory, If you have credentials to speak to the Hardness Test show us your facts. As a Certified Manufacturing Engineer I have hand books and experience to back me up. The "Asteric CAN NOT BE CALIBRATED AS A VIABLE HARDNESS PROBE FOR PURE AND SIMPLE GEOMMETRIC REASONS BASED ON PURE PHYSICAL SHAPE.

This is an Engineering fact not my opinion or theory.

Can you disprove that ???

ViggoG

[bill m]

Viggo,

This is my last post on this subject. You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. You are not going to change my opinion on this subject with your high tech lingo and definitions of what a theory is. According to you, a theory is a story, which everyone is suppose to accept as possible, probable, or even fact, unless one can proof it not to be. That is totally ridicious. You prove your own theory and convince me with proof that it is correct. It is easy to speculate and give a good line of BS, and then not back up any of it. Most people call that a con!


The theory was the "*" on the barrel of a Luger. Fact, -- it is only on the barrel -- Fact, it is mainly found on 1940/42's. -- Speculate why that is, and why it is not found on many, if any, 42 byf's? -- Fact, it is not on any Banner's -- Speculate why that is? Why not on any M1934's or HsC's? Speculate on that? Those are facts that put a big hole in the theory of the mighty SS marking forced labor weapons. But naturally, you'll just say that the forced labor was not on those production lines -- yeah right! Part of this is using common sense. Part of it is having enough Lugers to examine. Part of it is good data.


Opinions were asked for and I repeated what I was told by some of the major collectors. If you want to argue, contact them and argue with them.


Viggo, I'm going to give you a little advice on Luger collecting. With an attitude like you have on "a theory", and "speculating", you're going to get taken to the cleaners big time. There are lots of real cheaters out there that will tell you anything and try to put over just about anything to make a sale. You better have some FACTS, and EVIDENCE, and KNOWLEDGE of how things really should be. Speculating on a theory just doesn't cut it.


I'm done with this. Believe what you want. Go argue with someone else. It's been fun, to say the least.

Final say,

I have produced scientifically based evidence that the "*" is not and cannot be used as a hardness probe tip.

I ask for your proof that I am wrong and you have responded with a tirade of repetitions of what others have told you.

My statements are based on my own personal observations and hard fact that you have in no way shown to be without basis.

Rather than show what proof you have you have as in the past returned to personal character assination. Calling me a "con man seems" to be beneath even your character.

However there is no explaning what happens when a man without proof is backed into a corner.

The final statement that the "*" was used as a hardness probe is not only rediculous its downright funny that any man can claim to be reasonable and still not recognise the absolute fact when shown hard evidence.

You are right about one thing, You've got an "asterisk"

and you lost it in this case because you will not listen to factual evidence, but insist on claiming that your guess is fact in the face of proof that such is not, and cannot be true.

You are the WEAKEST LINK ! good by.

ViggoG

[Johnny Peppers]

It would be much easier to just quote the source that indicates that an asterisk shaped tool could not be used on relatively soft metal for a hardness test by the Germans. The test did not have to conform to anyone else's standards and as long as the same force was used to obtain a reading, a measureable indentation would the end result. After all, a round ball is also used for hardness testing.

If there is one thing that runs through the above thread it is the use of the word theory where hypothesis might be more appropriate. A theory is a formulation of apparent relationships of certain observed phenonomena which have been verified to a certain extent. Hypothesis is a conjecture or guess.