Taper Crimp?

[seabee73]

New to reloading for the Luger, I draw on my .45ACP reloading experience. When taper crimping the .45ACP, the common dimension recommend is between .472" - .469".
Any advice on the 9mm Luger dimensions?

[FNorm]

Slight to very little. I give the seating dye about 1/8 turn. Then check with the barrel chamber.
Going to the books, they say .380

[Sieger]

Hi:

For the Luger, a taper crimp is totally unnecessary, as a good solid friction fit will be more than adequate.

Sieger

[PhilOhio]

Sieger,

I would have to differ with you on the need for taper crimping. I think it is very much necessary, especially with a fast acting and rather violent light weight bolt assembly like that of the Luger. During feeding, that strong spring moves the light bolt forward much more smartly than in almost any other handgun design.

Even if the feed ramp geometry allows the bullet to travel freely and encounter no pressure, there may be bullet setback sometime, rarely, or almost all the time; because the bullet overcomes inertia so slowly during feeding. This leads to erratic pressures and accuracy...and perhaps jams.

Another factor is that, when reloading either jacketed or lead bullets for 9mm, it is usually necessary to bell the case mouth at least slightly. Normal bullet seating dies are not likely to remove all of this bell, and that can lead to feed problems, because the case mouth wants to "catch" any burr or roughness on the ramp.

Another problem I have run into is that of differences in case wall thickness among manufacturers; some are paper thin and some military cases are very thick. With the thick walls, the bullet might seat quite tightly without taper crimping. With thin walls, it will likely be loose and chances are high that it will be set back during feeding, perhaps only because of inertia.

So by all means put at least enough crimp on 9mm loads to ensure that the mouth belling has been eliminated and the bullet cannot be pushed inward with firm hand pressure.

And since this round headspaces on the case mouth, never ever put a roll crimp on it, or headspace won't be right and you can possibly get elevated pressures because the mouth cannot open easily to release the bullet...depending upon how your chamber has been reamed and where the rifling starts.

I reloaded for nearly 40 years before deciding that, with semiauto handgun cartridges, moderate taper crimping was the only way to go. Always. And I reload many thousands of them for handgun and SMG. For me, it eliminated a whole lot of occasionally irritating problems.

Sure, you might be able to get away without doing it much of the time. But why bother? It's no extra effort to have a taper crimp die properly adjusted at the last station on the Dillon press. That's the oly way to get a reload with the dimensions right up to factory ammo standards.

[FNorm]

I put this somewhere???? I put about a eight of a turn into the seating die, then try the breech fit. Mine measure about .377-.378. Or a 2-3 thousands squeeze. About the same I use on rifle brass for auto loaders.

FN

[Sieger]

PhilOhio:

Part of the reloading process is the fun we derive from reloading, as I'm sure you will agree that making that last little adjustment that brings a group down that extra bit is the essence of the effort itself.

Friction fit has always worked just fine for me. My typical targets are one inch or less at 25 yards (hand held over a sand bag) with my Lugers. The trick with a good friction fit is the diameter of the expander die used. Too tight and it shaves, too loose and it slips.

I differ from you on your approach to lead bullets, however. When loading lead, I typically let a "micro" bell at the case mouth, so as not to shave the soft lead off while the bullet is moving out of the case. This technique I discovered while loading black powder cartridges. Care must be taken in making the proper adjustment of the case mouth so as not to hang it up while feeding, however, into the bottleneck 9mm chamber of the Luger.

For me, reloading has been a great part of the enjoyment of shooting over the last 31 years.

Respectfully

Sieger

[PhilOhio]

Sieger,

I pretty much agree with what you say. I also try to do what you refer to as "micro belling"; I would prefer not to bell at all, so I do the minimum necessary to let ram pressure seat the bullet without shaving lead.

It's all about fun, and I really enjoy reloading. I've spent the whole week working up loads for my newly acquired 1937 S/42 Luger, and finally have it licked; reliable functioning; and with much less powder than expected.

But just this evening I learned something new about taper crimping (or maybe not having to taper crimp, I hope). While ordering some Lee parts, I learned that they claim their new generation of pistol dies are made to such tolerances THAT NO TAPER CRIMPING IS REQUIRED on cartridges such as 9mm Para, etc. They say the powder die puts on a minimum bell, and the seating die is made so it removes even this...and, I guess ends up with a very tight bullet fit, having the effect of a taper crimp.

I've been using other non-Lee dies for 9mm, such as RCBS or Lyman. For those, I still feel it is prudent to taper crimp.

BUT...

I also have a Lee carbide set in 9mm. So maybe that one is the way to go; eliminate case lubing and taper crimping, and test the result for awhile, to see how it works out. Easier is always better, if the result is acceptable.

[Sieger]

PhilOhio:

For the 9mm, I have had great success with the new Hornady carbide dies.

For FMJ, I use the standard expander, whereas, for lead, I use the expander they sell for the .38 Super. This combination seems to do the trick perfectly.

Yes, by all means, use a carbide set, as it eliminates the need for all most all lubrication.

I'd be interested in the exact loads you have developed, as I have been perfecting loads for the Luger since about 1978.

Lugers will operate perfectly with a proper set of springs and correctly crafted ammo.

Hope to hear about those loads!!

Sieger

[PhilOhio]

Sieger,

I hassled with Luger loads, starting in the '60s, and eventually gave up on it. I had a minty 1937 S/42 (sadly traded away) and my current almost minty 1917 artillery. The latter worked pretty well. The S/42...not very reliable. In retrospect, it was almost certainly the mag on the S/42.

Just this week I acquired a very nice 1937 S/42, to correct my bygone trading stupidity. This time, I have more than $40 in it. And I have it running quite well.

For many years, my standard load for pistol and SMG has been 4.5 gr. Bullseye and Lyman's 120 gr. 2-groove RN lead bullet. You need some oomph to run a slam loader. And Lee's truncated cone version works O.K. in some guns. Now I find it works in the Luger as well...which surprised me.

So just this week I learned that 4.5 gr. is way too much for the Luger. I tried 3.7 grains, which some of you use. That's fine, but shoots way high in this gun. I tried everything from 3.5 gr. to 4.0 gr., in .1 gr. increments. And for the time being, I like 3.5 gr. It still shoots about 4" high at 50 feet.

I have an excellent gun but only a "good" bore on the S/42, so group is 4" to 6"...not at all good. With 4.5 gr., it was shooting over 12" high at 50', and nothing on the gun is bent or tampered or out of alignment.

The problem with all these lead loads is that you cannot get cartridge OAL out there where it should be, not anywhere close to 1.169". Seating the RN out to the absolute max, all I can get is 1.105" OAL. But this feeds 100% reliably, so I can live with that. And in the last 50 - 70 rounds, I have not had a single (low power) stove pipe with the 3.5 gr. load. So I'm crossing my fingers to see if I can get away with the 3.5 gr. charge. It "feels" right in my hand, when I shoot it. After 50 years of this, you can sort of sense when everything is running right.

If I get any short cycle glitches, I'll probably go to my friend's favorite standard load of 3.6 gr. with this bullet, or the 3.7 gr. which so many on this board use. But I'd like to keep it low, to keep the gun from shooting so high. An increase of only .1 gr. seems to make this gun shoot almost 2" higher! Which I never would have guessed.

And that's a part of the fun of all this. There are always surprises and you continually learn, even after years of shooting and reloading. I've usually had a Luger or two on hand since about 1957, but I'm having more fun with them now than then. Just wish prices were the same as way back then, and I'd have a bunch. In retrospect, I realize that I bought my first S/42 in a Toledo pawn shop when it was only 20 years old and in mint condition. It was the same with 1911s.

(The only good part of it was that I traded the S/42 even-up to my buddy for his 1947 Harley "74", then in bushel baskets. Yep, traded that off also.)

[Sieger]

PhilOhio

I hassled with Luger loads, starting in the '60s, and eventually gave up on it. I had a minty 1937 S/42 (sadly traded away) and my current almost minty 1917 artillery. The latter worked pretty well. The S/42...not very reliable. In retrospect, it was almost certainly the mag on the S/42.

ITS ALL IN THE SPRINGS, MAGAZINE AND RECOIL. IF THESE ARE OUT OF SPEC, FORGET RELIABILITY

Just this week I acquired a very nice 1937 S/42, to correct my bygone trading stupidity. This time, I have more than $40 in it. And I have it running quite well.

For many years, my standard load for pistol and SMG has been 4.5 gr. Bullseye and Lyman's 120 gr. 2-groove RN lead bullet. You need some oomph to run a slam loader. And Lee's truncated cone version works O.K. in some guns. Now I find it works in the Luger as well...which surprised me.

"NARROW" TC BULLETS ARE JUST WHAT LUGER ORIGINALLY DESIGNED THE PISTOL TO SHOOT! LEE'S SHOULD BE LOADED TO 29MM FOR EXCELLENT FUNCTION, AS PROPER AOL IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL WITH THE LUGER DESIGN!

So just this week I learned that 4.5 gr. is way too much for the Luger. I tried 3.7 grains, which some of you use. That's fine, but shoots way high in this gun. I tried everything from 3.5 gr. to 4.0 gr., in .1 gr. increments. And for the time being, I like 3.5 gr. It still shoots about 4" high at 50 feet.

YOU ARE HITTING TO POINT OF AIM AT 50 METERS, THE ORIGINAL SIGHT-IN RANGE. AIM AT THE EDGE OF THE BLACK AND WHITE AT 6 O'CLOCK AND THE PISTOL SHOULD HIT DEAD BULL AT 25 METERS.

I have an excellent gun but only a "good" bore on the S/42, so group is 4" to 6"...not at all good. With 4.5 gr., it was shooting over 12" high at 50', and nothing on the gun is bent or tampered or out of alignment.

4.5 OF BULLSEYE IS WAY TOO MUCH IN THE LUGER. HERE IS THE REAL DEAL. THE LUGER WORKS BEST AND GETS BEST ACCURACY WITH MEDIUM TO SLOW BURNING POWDERS. TRY SOME "POWER PISTOL" OR SOME "SR4756" AND YOU WILL BE SHOCKED BY THE IMPROVEMENT!!

The problem with all these lead loads is that you cannot get cartridge OAL out there where it should be, not anywhere close to 1.169". Seating the RN out to the absolute max, all I can get is 1.105" OAL. But this feeds 100% reliably, so I can live with that. And in the last 50 - 70 rounds, I have not had a single (low power) stove pipe with the 3.5 gr. load. So I'm crossing my fingers to see if I can get away with the 3.5 gr. charge. It "feels" right in my hand, when I shoot it. After 50 years of this, you can sort of sense when everything is running right.

SIMPLY LOAD YOUR BULLETS WITH THE GREASE GROVE SHOWING. FOR ROUND NOSE, YOU SHOULD LOAD TO 1.169 TO 1.73, FOR TC BULLETS TO 1.15. REMEMBER, AOL IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL FOR PROPER FUNCTION!!!

If I get any short cycle glitches, I'll probably go to my friend's favorite standard load of 3.6 gr. with this bullet, or the 3.7 gr. which so many on this board use. But I'd like to keep it low, to keep the gun from shooting so high. An increase of only .1 gr. seems to make this gun shoot almost 2" higher! Which I never would have guessed.

FOR BULLS EYE, THE 124 GRAIN BULLET LIKES 3.7 GRAINS, FOR THE 115 GRAIN USE 3.8 GRAINS. THESE ARE MY ACCURACY LOADS WITH BULLSEYE.

And that's a part of the fun of all this. There are always surprises and you continually learn, even after years of shooting and reloading. I've usually had a Luger or two on hand since about 1957, but I'm having more fun with them now than then. Just wish prices were the same as way back then, and I'd have a bunch. In retrospect, I realize that I bought my first S/42 in a Toledo pawn shop when it was only 20 years old and in mint condition. It was the same with 1911s.

OH WELL, I WAS BORN IN 1956, SO YOU HAVE HAD AN OPPORTYNITY TO ENJOY THESE LITTLE JEWELS LONGER THAN I HAVE!!

(The only good part of it was that I traded the S/42 even-up to my buddy for his 1947 Harley "74", then in bushel baskets. Yep, traded that off also.)

BUY A FEW MEC-GAR MAGAZINES FOR ABOUT $27.00 EACH, AS THIS SHOULD GREATLY IMPROVE THE RELIABILITY OF YOUR PISTOLS.

SIEGER

[PhilOhio]

Sieger,

Thanks for all that info. I have a lot of load experimentation yet to do. And I want to get that impact point lowered. Some of what you posted should help me do that.

I hate to have to tailor loads to specific firearms, but in the case of the Luger, I doubt that there is an alternative. Now I am about to test whether "Luger loads" will operate some of my other pistols in the same caliber.

I really like SR4756. It's my favorite powder for the 12 ga. slug loads I use for deer hunting; absolute best accuracy. I never thought of using it in pistols.

I thought about loading with the lube groove exposed, but I prefer not to, since the loads require such careful "bench shooting only" type handling.

I need to find somebody who sells Mecgar mags at a low price and who has them in stock. Wideners is down to one mag, and "might" have more "in a few months". I want to buy two.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

Sieger,
I need to find somebody who sells Mecgar mags at a low price and who has them in stock. Wideners is down to one mag, and "might" have more "in a few months". I want to buy two.

PhilOhio:

GalatiInternational.com has them for $29.95, in stock!

Sieger

[PhilOhio]

Thanks. I'm still holding out for those lower Widener's prices.