Russian Lugers at Phoenix Investment Arms

[sheepherder]

I noticed a long thread here (way too long to read!) about Russian Lugers, and took a look at Phoenix, and they have two up ...One a 1900 Russian, the other a 1906 Russian with Tula Arsenal proofs...

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...3Russian00.htm

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com.../827Russ06.htm

Very interesting historical Lugers, which I noticed Walter mentioned only briefly in his The Luger book...

The one listed as a 1900 Russian is in my price range; in fact, if I sell my house, I could buy two...

[drbuster]

Postino, read the last, or latest posting by Albert Beliard (Imperial Arms) on this and Jan Still's Forums. His presentation in the form of a contest in "luger naming" espouses his latest thinking, supported by our Bulgarian contingent (Pavlov), that these lugers are not Russian lugers at all but Bulgarian lugers apparently sent to a Bulgarian Infantry regiment with many Russian soldiers as part of the regiment. The theory is compelling and hard to refute, especially as to why the words stamped on the safety area and extractor are 100% Bulgarian, and not "old Russian" as the old (read former) theorists lead us to believe. If this is so, how do we explain the 1900 "Russian"? Is this rare example an outright fake, an early "Bulgarian" or "Russian" salesman's piece to garner a contract, or ?? The Tula proof on the barrel of the 1906 "Russian-Bulgarian" is explained by Albert in the text. This is fine food for discussion, stay tuned!

[sheepherder]

Hello Dr Buster -

Phoenix Investments has a pretty good history of the Russian Lugers. I spent over an hour reading up on them on their site. They kind of spread the notes around, on the different Lugers for sale, and also in their Archived Lugers section.

Lots of interesting and definitive information there!!!

[Vlim]

Lots of interesting and definitive information there!!!

A total lack of the above, you mean? Al that is claimed about the 'Russian luger' on the site is completely unproven, not backed by external sources and/or references. A bit worthless. Also take into account that PIA has a long history of being the outlet for dubious collector pieces.

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You probably enjoy reading fiction about Lugers as well as accepting various flawed information mentioned by PIA, so I suggest that you do some reading which may help you and save your wallet.

Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Rich,

You probably enjoy reading fiction about Lugers...

Yes, I will get to that thread soon...Right now I am reading about Spandau Lugers and Deaths Head Lugers over at Jan Stills site...and Swedish & Finnish Lahti's at WarRelics.eu... Much interesting stuff being presented there...

Still puzzled about why a railroad - whether in Germany, Finland, or Sweden - would need sidearms...Did the British railroad also carry sidearms??? Why would any of them???

[sheepherder]

Land of Borchardt has a page devoted to the Russian Lugers...Even listing verified serial numbers...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

[drbuster]

Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by drbuster

Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

And the US was/is much less dependent on the railroads than say Europe...and yet the exploits of US bandits is more popularized than Europeans...but this is 1900-on that these weapons were being issued (or sold) to railroads...Lugers, Lahtis, whatever else...You would think that there would be more known about the threat (perceived or real) that these weapons were supposed to counter...Were there famous European train robbers???

When I was young, back in the late 50's, our primary school class went on a "field trip" to the local Federal Reserve Bank in Buffalo, NY...I recall that they had a floor rack of submachine guns for defense...all Reisings...with 20 rd mags...Another strange instance of arming an institution...

[Don M]

Originally Posted by postino

Still puzzled about why a railroad - whether in Germany, Finland, or Sweden - would need sidearms...Did the British railroad also carry sidearms??? Why would any of them???

A bit of the history of the German Railway Police may be found in Chapter 19 of History Writ in Steel. Germany still has an armed Bahnschutz.

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

Land of Borchardt has a page devoted to the Russian Lugers...Even listing verified serial numbers...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

Rich,

Give me a break (from LOB)! - "Even listing verified serial numbers...". Are you also going to mention that the M1900 Mexican Army contract Lugers are 'verfied'? You have obviously not carefully read my first article about the 'Russian Lugers'. I suggest you read my two articles on the same topic and gain some 'universal' knowledge before you go out to do any 'shopping' and make a serious mistake.

The web site "Land of Borchardt" should be changed to the "Land of Bull****" as a result of the many errors it contains!

Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

I suggest you read my two articles...

Albert -

Actually, I was just over at your site looking at your collection of Interesting Firearms (including the cased Bolo w/stock that Alvin lusts after! )...but except for a single picture of each, there is no description or story behind each example...

Do you have anecdotes about each of these??? Like many here, I enjoy the stories (or history) behind an unusual pistol...

[cirelaw]

Where would our site be with Good O'le Albert??

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

Albert -

Actually, I was just over at your site looking at your collection of Interesting Firearms (including the cased Bolo w/stock that Alvin lusts after! )...but except for a single picture of each, there is no description or story behind each example...

Do you have anecdotes about each of these??? Like many here, I enjoy the stories (or history) behind an unusual pistol...

Hello Rich,

When I had created my web site, I did not see any reason to write a story for each item because most of the information could be found in reference books such as 'Lugers at Random'. When it comes to the more rare and expensive pistols, I just happened to notice that there was less interest in these pistols when the majority of the collectors on the forums are interested in pistols that they can afford such as military Lugers, C96 'Red Nines' and Walther PP/PPK pistols, all of which I appreciate and admire.

Some of my pistols have a very interesting background and I shall share this information if I receive a question. The web site LOB wants to 'brag' about his level of expertise and the importance of this collection, and he designed his web site around this goal. Of course, many collectors say 'Wow' when they view/visit LOB, but unfortunately, they do not know what is occurring under the 'surface' as well as not realizing that some of the rambling articles are flawed and make no sense with regards to actual historical events. One of the strategies of LOB is to apply his archive of literature to write his 'stories' and I can say with confidence that my archive is larger and more important than LOB. Furthermore, I have been able to interprete this vast amount of information better than LOB in conjunction with my fellow collectors in Europe instead of relying on a handful shady individuals.

Many collectors want to receive a continous 'rush of excitement' by discovering new information without being patient or getting involved in the quest for knowledge. They want everything served on a silverplater and that will not happen by sitting on one's rear-end, or going to gun shows to chat with beer-buddies.

You have no idea how much time I spend talking with collectors all around the world by telephone, VoIP or on forums, whereas LOB remains invisible. LOB has a 'colorful' web site, but the writer behind the web site does not impress me. In addition, dealers or collectors who endorse such people put a bad taste in my mouth because these are the people who spoil this great hobby of collecting.

Albert

[Ron Wood]

Did I see the word "brag" in there somewhere?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Hello Rich,

When I had created my web site, I did not see any reason to write a story for each item because most of the information could be found in reference books such as 'Lugers at Random'. ...

Albert

Folks do not make a website unless they are trying to show off their things, whether you call this bragging or not. There is no reason to have a website except to show things off or attempt to sell something.

When I see a bunch of pictures, i have no idea if the owner even owns the guns themself. (I am sure you do, but your vaugness is a bit odd about the pieces)


It doesn't hurt to be from germany to be in the area and study, but you always act as if being european gives you a better understanding of lugers by being european. That makes little sense.




Ed

PS: I did read your writings on the russian guns, but I am not convinced that russian contracts don't exist. I have always felt they were a small contract and the earliest books talk about them being a contract (but then they talk about mexican lugers too, and I don't beleive in any of them)

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Ron,

I am not deliberately 'bragging' when I mention the size/contents of my archive, and I am not 'broadcasting' it over the Internet (through a web site with all that flash animation and pop-up dialogue boxes as used by LOB).

LOB has sometimes referred to certain plain/general artwork in his literature to support his claims/theories which are not exactly true. For example, a piece of artwork which has appeared in early literature showing a Tangent Sight Luger (with a push-button) is often described as a Navy Luger in dealer catalogs. In regards to Mauser literature, the use of a 'Step-Barrel' Cone Hammer is actually representing a Standard Cone Hammer or whatever type of C96 pistol was available in stock at the time.

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Folks do not make a website unless they are trying to show off their things, whether you call this bragging or not. There is no reason to have a website except to show things off or attempt to sell something.

When I see a bunch of pictures, i have no idea if the owner even owns the guns themself. (I am sure you do, but your vaugness is a bit odd about the pieces)

It doesn't hurt to be from germany to be in the area and study, but you always act as if being european gives you a better understanding of lugers by being european. That makes little sense.

Ed

PS: I did read your writings on the russian guns, but I am not convinced that russian contracts don't exist. I have always felt they were a small contract and the earliest books talk about them being a contract (but then they talk about mexican lugers too, and I don't beleive in any of them)

Hello Ed,

I enjoy reading web sites where I can gain some knowledge or meet new collectors. I believe that it would helpful to the collectors society if more collectors would share their collections online, whether it is on a web site, forum or image gallery. When some writers 'cross the line' without sufficient proof or evidence, then they can expect criticisms.

For example, my web site Imperial Arms is straight forward and the items in my collection are under the category 'Personal Collection'. If you need further clarification or information about any item that I display on my web site, you are welcome to contact me directly.

I have to disagree with your interpretation that my European nationality (German) has nothing to do with a better understanding about Lugers. I have learned about Lugers, Mausers and Walthers from both 'schools' (American and European), but the US tends to have a higher degree of fakes and, consequently, I have been leaning more on the European side. I wish to seize this opportunity to mention that the esteemed Ron is very knowledge about Lugers and I have even learned one or two things from him during my continuous education.

You have the freedom to believe whatever you want including whether or not there exists a 'Russian Luger'. Maybe those old phrases or words such as "The Russians are coming", 'Communists', 'the enemy', 'nuclear threat' will maintain you as a critic to support the survival of the Russian Luger, but I reckon that my theory explaining that it is another Bulgarian variation is more compelling and convincing than anything else that has been presented in the past.

Thank you for your comments.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

I know you have been talking about LOB, which I hold the same opinion, although I do not know the website owner. It has pretty guns, but not always accuarate information.

And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird.

Why display them

I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want.

I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something.


Ed

[cirelaw]

I figure it this way, Hes always entertaining and like television, you can always change channels.