mint holsters

Lonnie Zimmerman · 12-16-2001, 02:36 PM

Where are all these mint German holsters coming from? I hear from some that they are authentic, and others say from India. I am sure the forum members will know.

Lonnie

tom · 12-16-2001, 04:57 PM

Lonnie,

The genuine mint holsters that are showing up are doing so as the result of demographics. The brave young men who brought them back as souvenirs from the ETO are now in their 70's and 80's.

As these men depart to attend their last formation, their survivors are selling these holsters, many of which have sat, long forgotten, in a foot locker or closet shelf along with other little used or needed relics.

Check your newspapers for estate sales...

Tom

12-16-2001, 06:11 PM

In my opinion, to think that all these mint holsters are actual vet bring backs is naive and wishful thinking. This is further complicated by the fact that the counterfeiters are getting better and better at their craft. Check e-bay and you get an idea of where they are being made, mostly in Russia and in Sweden, though we do seem to have a couple of importers in the U.S.A. located in the southeast and in the midwest.

Aaron · 12-16-2001, 07:29 PM

Here is a source of fake holsters. They will custom date a holster for you from 1934 to 1944.

http://www.ima-usa.com/p15.html

Lonnie Zimmerman · 12-16-2001, 08:00 PM

I should have been more specific. I know about the fake Luger and P-38 holsters, but I meant all the HSC, PP, PPK,

Sauer 38H type holsters. These are advertised as: found in East German warehouses, etc, and are sold by some pretty reputable dealers, without naming names.

Lonnie

BILL · 12-16-2001, 08:10 PM

Recent military auctions are big business in the old Eastern Block countries. I am not sure who all the importers are but I am sure there is a lot of stuff coming out of old military depots.

12-16-2001, 08:32 PM

I also think that, there are many holsters that are fake, but I don't think I would ever say that Tom is naive or desires wishful thinking. Well, maybe that part...

Tom doesn't appear as that type. I believe that he is correct, the number of WW2 dying and meeting their last KP detail is staggering. As people hit 80 years ot more, the easier it is for them to get ill, fall or pass away.

I believe it is a mixture of fakery and vets passing away.

I bought a pig skin holster from Russia and believed it was probably a fake, but it is very well done, appears aged and looks much like one I saw in one of my books.

Ed

lugerholsterrepair · 12-16-2001, 09:41 PM

Tom has helped me on many occasions to determine the authenticity of a holster and I consider him to be one of the few authorities I know on the subject. What he says is true not only for holsters but pistols as well. I have been in a few gunstores around the country in my travels and they have six or eight lugers in the case. I ask why do you have so many? The guy says either old guys bring them in because no one in the family wants his old war trophy or the survivors of an old soldier are bringing them in.

As for telling old from new, that is a study of it's own but if you study as many photos as you can you will begin to get a feel for old and new. Of course I specialize in P08 holsters but I get plenty of others accross my work bench too. Study up and trust your gut. If it's actually "mint" then examine it all the more closely. Even a holster right out of a Sadtlers shop from 1939 Germany can't resist all of the elements that effect it through the years. Color is one determining factor. Look at the color and condition of the inside as you open the top. This is generally left alone and not messed with. Compare that with what you see on Ebay since you know many of those are old and not mint. If you see the piece close up, smell it. Smell every old holster you come accross. They have a distinct smell if they are original and old. (now there's a perversion for all you luger nuts to hang your hat on!)There are many facets of the art that I will not bore you with here but take a good in depth look and if it's suspicious in any way , stay away.Jerry Burney

BILL · 12-16-2001, 10:00 PM

Don't underestimate the sense of smell when checking something out to determine it's age. Holsters, as anything organic, has a distinctive aroma. If it smells like a leather shop it probably isn't very old. Once you smell the holsters that you know are old then it would be hard to slip a new one by someone. I guess if it is ok to go around tasting Lugers then it is surely more socially acceptable (and hygenically correct) to merely smell the holster they have been resting in. NOTE: Please ask the owner before tasting or smelling if you are at a gunshow. Warn them and do it slowly (always thank someone that lets you smell a holster or lick a Luger).

Aaron · 12-17-2001, 01:24 AM

I have to laugh when I hear about these "overlooked WWII military depots and warehouses" loaded with mint holsters. If there were so many unissued holsters, how come they went to manufacturing ersatz paper holsters near the end of the war? dIf the fakers could pull it off they would suddenly "discover" warehouses full of mint, crated Lugers! But they can't, so the do the next best thing and concentrate making and selling "mint" holsters. Coin collectors now spend big bucks to have valuable coins authenticated and registered, so maybe we should be doing the same with holsters and guns. I would think everything could be carbon dated and a certificate of authenticity issued. That would stop all this nonsense. Incidentally, the small pistol holsters are more easily faked than the Luger and P-38 hard shell types, so be especially cautious with them.

Orv Reichert · 12-17-2001, 04:40 AM

Krutzek and Felgemacher have both confirmed to me that large stores of holsters...many in new condition..were sold off from the storage depot of the former DDR a few years back.

I purchased a bunch of Police marked P38 holsters from the group that had never had the flaps folded over....just unbelievable!! They were not, however, cheap!

There were all kinds of pocket pistols holsters, too.

So, there was a legitimate source...in addition to the phonies that are being made up!

12-17-2001, 10:55 AM

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Jerry.

In my view, one has to exercise all of one's facilities when examining old holsters and old guns, especially those that are subject to being "Improved" by Americanishe Waffen Fabrik, as is often the case with toggle tops.

As an example, at the MAX show several years back, I saw a P-08 with a VERY rare party organizational mark. Fortunately, the vendor table was near the windows in the Expo hall, so the light was good. The piece looked *right*; somewhat worn, about 85% blue remaining, some, but not excessive wear to the grips.

It was an absolute fake.

How could I determine this in about 2o seconds(and have two other advanced collectors agree with me)?

Well, first of all, it was a P-08 and party organizations were provided Walther PP and PPK, as is well documented, despite what some dealers would have one believe.

Secondly, a quick pass of the piece under my nose revealed the very distinct smell of cold blue from the area where the unit markings were. Thirdly, it had a very nice matching magazine, only it was the wrong type for this particular vintage P-08.

If it seems too good to be true, it probably is, but you knew that already.

Folks, holsters are pretty much the same way. Use ALL your facilties, including your BRAIN.

A mint, unissued holster should still smell somewhat musty from storage and should be very dry. Check the makers mark and Waffen and compare what you have versus what is on record as having been made by whom and when. A used holster

will smell like a combination of old pipe tobacco and the inside of your grandmother's purse; it will taste somewhat bitter/sour/salty from the oak tannins used to cure the leather. And most importantly, it will show obvious signs of use, both internally and externally.

Check the stitching colors. If the piece is a World War I veteran, the stitching should not be white. If W.W.II, bright white stitching should wave a flag. If the piece has *any* markings, stampings, etc that make it appear that the piece was issued to the SS, simply assume it is a post war addition and do not pay any premium based on that alone; if anything, deduct from the asking price. Look for verdegreis and other "Crud" that should have accumulated over the last 50 years or so. If you aren't getting these indications, simply walk away from the piece.

Examine the texture of the leather from the inside; pre-1945 leather has a distinctively different look and feel than post war leather; the difference is even more pronounced in Imperial era holsters.

Do all of this PLUS buy LOTS of BOOKS and study them, (Stills, Whittington, Bender, etc, etc) and guess what, you may still be fooled. It just won't happen nearly as often.

Flame away,

Tom

Johnny Peppers · 12-17-2001, 11:39 AM

When the fakers can fake an Akah holster and 60 or so years of wear and deterioration, they will have arrived.

Orv Reichert · 12-17-2001, 02:21 PM

When I opened up the box with the holsters...I was immediately transported back to my old supply room in Inchon Korea in 1952......that same gun/leather/web gear/musty smell! It is amazing how your brain will retain such a memory for 50 years and be activated by a smell [or a song?]

Jim Van Eldik · 12-17-2001, 04:20 PM

Orv,

Smell is one of your most potent memories. Wait until you get a whiff of that little honey you dated in 11th grade at some class reunion!!

Jim

BILL · 12-17-2001, 09:07 PM

I don't think it is very easy to fake an old holster. The aging of leather is a very distinct process. This natural process is compounded by the tanning process. Together, these two processes are not easily replicated. As for anything mint showing up on the market..it doesn't mean it is a fake, it just means that if you are planning on purchasing it you are going to pay a premium (and that in itself should make you extra cautious). Now that military collectables are at an all time high in value a lot of 'good stuff' is coming out of a lot of different places. There are still some treasures out there that have not been in the hands of collectors yet. You never know when they will show up.

"Take me to your Luger!"

12-16-2001, 02:36 PM	#1
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	mint holsters Where are all these mint German holsters coming from? I hear from some that they are authentic, and others say from India. I am sure the forum members will know. Lonnie

12-16-2001, 04:57 PM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: mint holsters Lonnie, The genuine mint holsters that are showing up are doing so as the result of demographics. The brave young men who brought them back as souvenirs from the ETO are now in their 70's and 80's. As these men depart to attend their last formation, their survivors are selling these holsters, many of which have sat, long forgotten, in a foot locker or closet shelf along with other little used or needed relics. Check your newspapers for estate sales... Tom

12-16-2001, 06:11 PM	#3
Herbert Guest Posts: n/a	Re: mint holsters In my opinion, to think that all these mint holsters are actual vet bring backs is naive and wishful thinking. This is further complicated by the fact that the counterfeiters are getting better and better at their craft. Check e-bay and you get an idea of where they are being made, mostly in Russia and in Sweden, though we do seem to have a couple of importers in the U.S.A. located in the southeast and in the midwest.

12-16-2001, 07:29 PM	#4
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: mint holsters Here is a source of fake holsters. They will custom date a holster for you from 1934 to 1944. http://www.ima-usa.com/p15.html

12-16-2001, 08:00 PM	#5
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: mint holsters I should have been more specific. I know about the fake Luger and P-38 holsters, but I meant all the HSC, PP, PPK, Sauer 38H type holsters. These are advertised as: found in East German warehouses, etc, and are sold by some pretty reputable dealers, without naming names. Lonnie

12-16-2001, 08:10 PM	#6
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: mint holsters Recent military auctions are big business in the old Eastern Block countries. I am not sure who all the importers are but I am sure there is a lot of stuff coming out of old military depots.

12-16-2001, 08:32 PM	#7
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: mint holsters I also think that, there are many holsters that are fake, but I don't think I would ever say that Tom is naive or desires wishful thinking. Well, maybe that part... Tom doesn't appear as that type. I believe that he is correct, the number of WW2 dying and meeting their last KP detail is staggering. As people hit 80 years ot more, the easier it is for them to get ill, fall or pass away. I believe it is a mixture of fakery and vets passing away. I bought a pig skin holster from Russia and believed it was probably a fake, but it is very well done, appears aged and looks much like one I saw in one of my books. Ed

12-16-2001, 09:41 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Re: Do your Homework Tom has helped me on many occasions to determine the authenticity of a holster and I consider him to be one of the few authorities I know on the subject. What he says is true not only for holsters but pistols as well. I have been in a few gunstores around the country in my travels and they have six or eight lugers in the case. I ask why do you have so many? The guy says either old guys bring them in because no one in the family wants his old war trophy or the survivors of an old soldier are bringing them in. As for telling old from new, that is a study of it's own but if you study as many photos as you can you will begin to get a feel for old and new. Of course I specialize in P08 holsters but I get plenty of others accross my work bench too. Study up and trust your gut. If it's actually "mint" then examine it all the more closely. Even a holster right out of a Sadtlers shop from 1939 Germany can't resist all of the elements that effect it through the years. Color is one determining factor. Look at the color and condition of the inside as you open the top. This is generally left alone and not messed with. Compare that with what you see on Ebay since you know many of those are old and not mint. If you see the piece close up, smell it. Smell every old holster you come accross. They have a distinct smell if they are original and old. (now there's a perversion for all you luger nuts to hang your hat on!)There are many facets of the art that I will not bore you with here but take a good in depth look and if it's suspicious in any way , stay away.Jerry Burney

12-16-2001, 10:00 PM	#9
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sense of Smell Don't underestimate the sense of smell when checking something out to determine it's age. Holsters, as anything organic, has a distinctive aroma. If it smells like a leather shop it probably isn't very old. Once you smell the holsters that you know are old then it would be hard to slip a new one by someone. I guess if it is ok to go around tasting Lugers then it is surely more socially acceptable (and hygenically correct) to merely smell the holster they have been resting in. NOTE: Please ask the owner before tasting or smelling if you are at a gunshow. Warn them and do it slowly (always thank someone that lets you smell a holster or lick a Luger).

12-17-2001, 01:24 AM	#10
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Sense of Smell I have to laugh when I hear about these "overlooked WWII military depots and warehouses" loaded with mint holsters. If there were so many unissued holsters, how come they went to manufacturing ersatz paper holsters near the end of the war? dIf the fakers could pull it off they would suddenly "discover" warehouses full of mint, crated Lugers! But they can't, so the do the next best thing and concentrate making and selling "mint" holsters. Coin collectors now spend big bucks to have valuable coins authenticated and registered, so maybe we should be doing the same with holsters and guns. I would think everything could be carbon dated and a certificate of authenticity issued. That would stop all this nonsense. Incidentally, the small pistol holsters are more easily faked than the Luger and P-38 hard shell types, so be especially cautious with them.

12-17-2001, 04:40 AM	#11
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	holsters Krutzek and Felgemacher have both confirmed to me that large stores of holsters...many in new condition..were sold off from the storage depot of the former DDR a few years back. I purchased a bunch of Police marked P38 holsters from the group that had never had the flaps folded over....just unbelievable!! They were not, however, cheap! There were all kinds of pocket pistols holsters, too. So, there was a legitimate source...in addition to the phonies that are being made up!

12-17-2001, 10:55 AM	#12
Tom (Wishful thinker) Long post Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Do your Homework Thanks for your vote of confidence, Jerry. In my view, one has to exercise all of one's facilities when examining old holsters and old guns, especially those that are subject to being "Improved" by Americanishe Waffen Fabrik, as is often the case with toggle tops. As an example, at the MAX show several years back, I saw a P-08 with a VERY rare party organizational mark. Fortunately, the vendor table was near the windows in the Expo hall, so the light was good. The piece looked right; somewhat worn, about 85% blue remaining, some, but not excessive wear to the grips. It was an absolute fake. How could I determine this in about 2o seconds(and have two other advanced collectors agree with me)? Well, first of all, it was a P-08 and party organizations were provided Walther PP and PPK, as is well documented, despite what some dealers would have one believe. Secondly, a quick pass of the piece under my nose revealed the very distinct smell of cold blue from the area where the unit markings were. Thirdly, it had a very nice matching magazine, only it was the wrong type for this particular vintage P-08. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is, but you knew that already. Folks, holsters are pretty much the same way. Use ALL your facilties, including your BRAIN. A mint, unissued holster should still smell somewhat musty from storage and should be very dry. Check the makers mark and Waffen and compare what you have versus what is on record as having been made by whom and when. A used holster will smell like a combination of old pipe tobacco and the inside of your grandmother's purse; it will taste somewhat bitter/sour/salty from the oak tannins used to cure the leather. And most importantly, it will show obvious signs of use, both internally and externally. Check the stitching colors. If the piece is a World War I veteran, the stitching should not be white. If W.W.II, bright white stitching should wave a flag. If the piece has any markings, stampings, etc that make it appear that the piece was issued to the SS, simply assume it is a post war addition and do not pay any premium based on that alone; if anything, deduct from the asking price. Look for verdegreis and other "Crud" that should have accumulated over the last 50 years or so. If you aren't getting these indications, simply walk away from the piece. Examine the texture of the leather from the inside; pre-1945 leather has a distinctively different look and feel than post war leather; the difference is even more pronounced in Imperial era holsters. Do all of this PLUS buy LOTS of BOOKS and study them, (Stills, Whittington, Bender, etc, etc) and guess what, you may still be fooled. It just won't happen nearly as often. Flame away, Tom

12-17-2001, 11:39 AM	#13
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Sense of Smell When the fakers can fake an Akah holster and 60 or so years of wear and deterioration, they will have arrived.

12-17-2001, 02:21 PM	#14
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	holster smell When I opened up the box with the holsters...I was immediately transported back to my old supply room in Inchon Korea in 1952......that same gun/leather/web gear/musty smell! It is amazing how your brain will retain such a memory for 50 years and be activated by a smell [or a song?]

12-17-2001, 04:20 PM	#15
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: holster smell Orv, Smell is one of your most potent memories. Wait until you get a whiff of that little honey you dated in 11th grade at some class reunion!! Jim

12-17-2001, 09:07 PM	#16
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Sense of Smell I don't think it is very easy to fake an old holster. The aging of leather is a very distinct process. This natural process is compounded by the tanning process. Together, these two processes are not easily replicated. As for anything mint showing up on the market..it doesn't mean it is a fake, it just means that if you are planning on purchasing it you are going to pay a premium (and that in itself should make you extra cautious). Now that military collectables are at an all time high in value a lot of 'good stuff' is coming out of a lot of different places. There are still some treasures out there that have not been in the hands of collectors yet. You never know when they will show up. "Take me to your Luger!"