Navy on Gunbroker

Madcow · 02-06-2010, 11:52 AM

Iterested in this gun. Any opinions?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=155519394

drbuster · 02-07-2010, 01:53 PM

Madcow (Jim), the 1906 Navy on GB looks OK to my eye. Seeing the GERMANY export stamp under the barrel, in my mind, is some reassurance as to this pistol's authenticity as the faking folks (at least as far as I have experienced) have not put such a stamp on. It is the so-called third model, with the GESICHERT stamped in the upper position and no evidence of removal from the lower position. The holster looks good as does the magazine, cleaning rod and tool. Of course, the straps and stock are missing but the rig as it is, is still very desirable. I would like to hear from others if they see something that doesn't look right as I cannot find any such "red flags". I suspect that it will be bid up substantially higher than the current price. Such a combination of luger and accessories on our propular internet sites would probably demand a $4-$5K asking proce.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-07-2010, 05:51 PM

Jim, I would ask a few more questions of this seller. I don't like the look of the WW on the back grip strap. I am no expert but I would want someone who is ...to take a look at it. A very good clear closeup photo would help. It actually looks re/mis numbered? So is the mag bottom..Me no like.
The holster has been restored. It had slits put in the back for belt carry and subsequently a stock block added. Imperial Navy holsters are quite rare and this does not detract all that much to me. I would guess that the lifting strap was removed when the slits were made and a poor one replaces the original. Again the rarity of Navy holsters etc.
The tool is Navy proofed but with a Police serial on the back?
I would want a strong return commitment from the seller. I would want to inspect these items in hand.
The Pistol looks good from what I can see..which is little from photo's.

The most di$$icult thing to find if you aquire this rig will be an original $tock. I have come accross VERY few Imperial Navy holsters for sale over the years but they are a dime a dozen compared to stocks.

Good Luck!

Jerry Burney

Madcow · 02-07-2010, 07:24 PM

Now up to 4600.00 (reserve not met) with less than 2 days to go. That is about what I was willing to give for it. I would be curios as to what his reserve is.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-07-2010, 07:51 PM

If this rig is matching and legitimate I would think the reserve is right at $6500-7000.

Jerry Burney

Big Norm · 03-13-2010, 03:28 PM

I have to agree with Jerry in his analysis of the magazine, grip markings and price. When this P04's price went over $6,000, the seller lost me as a purchaser. But since I have a lot of navies in my collection, I watch this navy a lot.

But has anyone looked at the thumb safety? The "gesichert" is up. The bottom part does not appear to be altered. So this would make this a second issue, not a first issue unaltered. Still a nice P04 and probably more rare than the 1st issue unaltered. But its close. Most of the 1906's that I find are 1st issue altered.

Any other issues that I have with this navy has to do with the bluing. My comments here is that the bluing on the grip safety and the grip seem to be of different hues. The same holds for the rear toggle sight. But I will be the first to admit that this could be just a photography thingy. The actual bluing on this gun could be totally correct. You will only know by holding this apparent treasure in your sweaty and shaky hands after you buy it. Good luck gentlemen.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-13-2010, 03:55 PM

I have to agree with Jerry in his analysis of the magazine, grip markings and price. When this P04's price went over $6,000, the seller lost me as a purchaser. But since I have a lot of navies in my collection, I watch this navy a lot.

But has anyone looked at the thumb safety? The "gesichert" is up. The bottom part does not appear to be altered. So this would make this a second issue, not a first issue unaltered. Still a nice P04 and probably more rare than the 1st issue unaltered. But its close. Most of the 1906's that I find are 1st issue altered.

Any other issues that I have with this navy has to do with the bluing. My comments here is that the bluing on the grip safety and the grip seem to be of different hues. The same holds for the rear toggle sight. But I will be the first to admit that this could be just a photography thingy. The actual bluing on this gun could be totally correct. You will only know by holding this apparent treasure in your sweaty and shaky hands after you buy it. Good luck gentlemen.
Big Norm

Norme · 03-13-2010, 04:07 PM

Hi Big Norm, In my opinion this gun is a 1st Issue Altered. Even though the old Gesichert has bee cleanly removed, the discoloration points to a spot refinish. I have posted a photo of another altered 1st Issue with similar discoloration. Also, the serial number is, I believe, too low to be a 2nd Issue. Regards, Norm

Big Norm · 03-13-2010, 04:15 PM

Just an after thought, the "GERMANY" that is stamped on this P04 SHOULD in no way affect the price of the gun any more than British proof marks should. But the presence of these marks in no way guarantees or even suggests that this weapon has not been messed with some time during its 100+ years of existence.

But, when a person puts out big buckos for treasure, they expect perfection and authenticity. In their minds, the presence of non factory or British markings DOES affect a articles value. The presence of the "GERMANY" stamp is purely and individual thing. But it does affect the price by reducing the number of buyers willing to pay big money for something.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-13-2010, 07:20 PM

Norm#2
Yep, the serial numbers have it as a 1st issue altered according the Jan Stills book. Too bad, a nice rarer second issue might justify the price. Even with the pictures that you supplied, it is hard to see the old GESICHERT. JAN STILL mentioned in his book that the erasure of that marking was pretty roughly done. That is how this marking looks on my 06 navies.
Big Norm

02-06-2010, 11:52 AM	#1
Madcow User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Navy on Gunbroker Iterested in this gun. Any opinions? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=155519394 __________________ Don't take life too seriously, because your not going to make it out alive.

02-07-2010, 05:51 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Jim, I would ask a few more questions of this seller. I don't like the look of the WW on the back grip strap. I am no expert but I would want someone who is ...to take a look at it. A very good clear closeup photo would help. It actually looks re/mis numbered? So is the mag bottom..Me no like. The holster has been restored. It had slits put in the back for belt carry and subsequently a stock block added. Imperial Navy holsters are quite rare and this does not detract all that much to me. I would guess that the lifting strap was removed when the slits were made and a poor one replaces the original. Again the rarity of Navy holsters etc. The tool is Navy proofed but with a Police serial on the back? I would want a strong return commitment from the seller. I would want to inspect these items in hand. The Pistol looks good from what I can see..which is little from photo's. The most di$$icult thing to find if you aquire this rig will be an original $tock. I have come accross VERY few Imperial Navy holsters for sale over the years but they are a dime a dozen compared to stocks. Good Luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-07-2010, 07:24 PM	#4
Madcow User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Now up to 4600.00 (reserve not met) with less than 2 days to go. That is about what I was willing to give for it. I would be curios as to what his reserve is. __________________ Don't take life too seriously, because your not going to make it out alive.

02-07-2010, 07:51 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	If this rig is matching and legitimate I would think the reserve is right at $6500-7000. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-13-2010, 04:07 PM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Big Norm, In my opinion this gun is a 1st Issue Altered. Even though the old Gesichert has bee cleanly removed, the discoloration points to a spot refinish. I have posted a photo of another altered 1st Issue with similar discoloration. Also, the serial number is, I believe, too low to be a 2nd Issue. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

02-07-2010, 01:53 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Madcow (Jim), the 1906 Navy on GB looks OK to my eye. Seeing the GERMANY export stamp under the barrel, in my mind, is some reassurance as to this pistol's authenticity as the faking folks (at least as far as I have experienced) have not put such a stamp on. It is the so-called third model, with the GESICHERT stamped in the upper position and no evidence of removal from the lower position. The holster looks good as does the magazine, cleaning rod and tool. Of course, the straps and stock are missing but the rig as it is, is still very desirable. I would like to hear from others if they see something that doesn't look right as I cannot find any such "red flags". I suspect that it will be bid up substantially higher than the current price. Such a combination of luger and accessories on our propular internet sites would probably demand a $4-$5K asking proce.

03-13-2010, 03:28 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have to agree with Jerry in his analysis of the magazine, grip markings and price. When this P04's price went over $6,000, the seller lost me as a purchaser. But since I have a lot of navies in my collection, I watch this navy a lot. But has anyone looked at the thumb safety? The "gesichert" is up. The bottom part does not appear to be altered. So this would make this a second issue, not a first issue unaltered. Still a nice P04 and probably more rare than the 1st issue unaltered. But its close. Most of the 1906's that I find are 1st issue altered. Any other issues that I have with this navy has to do with the bluing. My comments here is that the bluing on the grip safety and the grip seem to be of different hues. The same holds for the rear toggle sight. But I will be the first to admit that this could be just a photography thingy. The actual bluing on this gun could be totally correct. You will only know by holding this apparent treasure in your sweaty and shaky hands after you buy it. Good luck gentlemen. Big Norm

03-13-2010, 03:55 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have to agree with Jerry in his analysis of the magazine, grip markings and price. When this P04's price went over $6,000, the seller lost me as a purchaser. But since I have a lot of navies in my collection, I watch this navy a lot. But has anyone looked at the thumb safety? The "gesichert" is up. The bottom part does not appear to be altered. So this would make this a second issue, not a first issue unaltered. Still a nice P04 and probably more rare than the 1st issue unaltered. But its close. Most of the 1906's that I find are 1st issue altered. Any other issues that I have with this navy has to do with the bluing. My comments here is that the bluing on the grip safety and the grip seem to be of different hues. The same holds for the rear toggle sight. But I will be the first to admit that this could be just a photography thingy. The actual bluing on this gun could be totally correct. You will only know by holding this apparent treasure in your sweaty and shaky hands after you buy it. Good luck gentlemen. Big Norm

03-13-2010, 04:15 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Just an after thought, the "GERMANY" that is stamped on this P04 SHOULD in no way affect the price of the gun any more than British proof marks should. But the presence of these marks in no way guarantees or even suggests that this weapon has not been messed with some time during its 100+ years of existence. But, when a person puts out big buckos for treasure, they expect perfection and authenticity. In their minds, the presence of non factory or British markings DOES affect a articles value. The presence of the "GERMANY" stamp is purely and individual thing. But it does affect the price by reducing the number of buyers willing to pay big money for something. Big Norm

03-13-2010, 07:20 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Norm#2 Yep, the serial numbers have it as a 1st issue altered according the Jan Stills book. Too bad, a nice rarer second issue might justify the price. Even with the pictures that you supplied, it is hard to see the old GESICHERT. JAN STILL mentioned in his book that the erasure of that marking was pretty roughly done. That is how this marking looks on my 06 navies. Big Norm