Need help identifying/valuing

inheritedLuger · 04-08-2010, 03:26 AM

My father recently passed, and left me a Luger. (I'm a total novice to pistols) I've searched on the web for info, but it's a bit overwhelming. This is what I know so far:

DMW on center toggle link

Crown with capital "N" under it: upright on left side of barrel extension, sideways on left side of breech block, and again on underside of barrel

"9403" underside of barrel below crown N stamp and again front of frame

03 appears on several smaller visible parts (I haven't broken it down yet)

Grip has a capital M over an anchor (which is why I'm assuming this was a naval firearm), and "N.339" below that

I have the original documents granting ownership of pistol to WWII vet dated FEB 12 - 46

I'd like to know manufacturing date and any detailed description if possible, as well as an approx value (or range at least)

I'll try to attach scans

Thanks in advance

JTD · 04-08-2010, 09:23 AM

Dave, welcome. From your discription, sounds like you have a Weimar era 4"navy luger. More close ups of all proofing, including the gripstrap mark, bottom of mag, front frame ser# are nessessary for an acurate estimate of value. Looks like a good 1938 navy holster, worth a fair buck in itself, again more photos. The capture papers ad a bit to rig value also. If all correct, I would venture to say 2500- 3000 for the rig if correct. More close ups are needed of this luger. John

Ron Smith · 04-08-2010, 09:38 AM

Dave,

I agree with John. A very nice and desirable piece to have, if all original and correct.

Ron

mrerick · 04-08-2010, 12:12 PM

There is a good discussion of Navy Luger marking in this post:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=anchor

There were addressing a question about the WW-II era, but describe how Weimar era re-worked Lugers were marked by the German Navy.

The "N.339" would be a unit property mark associated with the North Sea command.

The "Crown/N" or "C/N" marking is a Nitro proof marking indicating that the pistol passed high pressure testing.

The Weimar era guns were manufactured after the end of World War I and before 1929 when Mauser purchased the DWM Luger manufacturing equipment and tooling.

Many WW-I Lugers were refurbished since Germany was inhibited from re-arming after WW-I.

I'm just starting out researching and understanding Lugers. This site and Jan Still's forum site have tremendous resources, and are frequented by international class experts.

The Navy Lugers are more rare, and your gun has not been "messed with" (refinishing reduces it's value). It looks to be in very good condition, as does the holster.

The papers add to your gun's value also, giving it provenance.

After ensuring it's not loaded, you can disassemble it to verify that all the parts have matching numbers (most will have the last two digits of the serial number, or the entire number). That makes it more desirable and collectible.

The magazine bottom looks like WW-II vintage. It's not likely to have a matching number on it's base.

Be very careful disassembling your gun. It would be a good time to ensure that it's clean and that parts have a light oiling with a rust preventing oil like "RemOil". I would tend to store the gun and holster separately.

You can get an idea of what dealers are asking for similar guns by looking at sites like Simpson's:

http://www.simpsonltd.com/

inheritedLuger · 04-16-2010, 11:51 AM

Thanks for all the replies. The clip in the photos is the one used for shooting. My Dad took it to a range once just to have the chance to enjoy shooting it. I know he thoroughly cleaned it after that use. The other clip, in the holster, is the original clip, and I don't believe has been tampered with since it was brought back. The entire piece was actually hidden in an attic for decades, as the gentelman who brought it back had passed away and it was forgotten.
A few years ago, my Father found a mini cooler while helping to clear out the Vets wife's attic (she's still kicking at 93) and didn't even know the pistol was hidden there till he went to clean it later. Of course he immediately informed her of it, and lucky for him she was happy to exchange it for some additional work in her home.
As for me, I know the grandson of the Vet, and given the records tying the piece to his family, I feel obligated to return it to him. I was looking for the info to let him know how significant it is historically and as a collectible, as well as sentimental.

Ron Smith · 04-16-2010, 12:33 PM

"The "N.339" would be a unit property mark associated with the North Sea command (Keil was the armory)".

Marc,

Kiel was the "Ostsee" Naval station. The "Nordsee" station was at Wilhelmshaven.

Ron

Conny · 04-16-2010, 12:47 PM

That's a real nice Luger. Even better with the Government paperwork. Great find.

Don't mean to be unfeeling or immoral but, work on the ladies house was in exchange for the pistol (if I understand your writing correctly). Since "paid" for by labor, your Dad owns it now.

mrerick · 04-16-2010, 05:28 PM

Ron, thanks for the correction on Nordsee! Marc

inheritedLuger · 04-17-2010, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conny

That's a real nice Luger. Even better with the Government paperwork. Great find.

Don't mean to be unfeeling or immoral but, work on the ladies house was in exchange for the pistol (if I understand your writing correctly). Since "paid" for by labor, your Dad owns it now.

I appreciate your intention in the comment, but ownership isn't an issue of contention. The grandson wasn't even aware of it's existence. If it weren't for the paperwork connecting the piece with his family history (there is a collection of military unit patches, currency from various places in Europe, and other documents), I would've been very happy to keep it. I just think it's the right thing to do.

Douglas Jr. · 04-23-2010, 11:39 AM

I do not intend to question your decision to return it to the vet's family.
However I think it would be a wise move trying to know the Vet's grandson feelings about the gun and his granpa service.

The question is: would he really care? I mean, will he give the same value for the gun's story as you or a collector?

It seems stupid to ask this, but if your browse through this forum (or other militaria related forum) you'll find plenty of stories of relatives selling vets belongings, souvenirs, medals, uniforms and bringbacks of all sorts in garage sales. Sometimes they just throw it in the garbage can. Simple like that as they just don't care... I'm sure others here in the Forum can confirm that.

Just my two cents.

Douglas.

Norme · 04-23-2010, 12:29 PM

Dear Dave, My sympathy for your loss. I must side with the others in questioning your decision to return this pistol to the Vet's grandson. As I understand it, your Dad paid for this gun, fair and square, with his labor. His intent, surely, was that it be passed on to you. I think you should respect his wishes. Best regards, Norm

04-08-2010, 03:26 AM	#1
inheritedLuger New User Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need help identifying/valuing My father recently passed, and left me a Luger. (I'm a total novice to pistols) I've searched on the web for info, but it's a bit overwhelming. This is what I know so far: DMW on center toggle link Crown with capital "N" under it: upright on left side of barrel extension, sideways on left side of breech block, and again on underside of barrel "9403" underside of barrel below crown N stamp and again front of frame 03 appears on several smaller visible parts (I haven't broken it down yet) Grip has a capital M over an anchor (which is why I'm assuming this was a naval firearm), and "N.339" below that I have the original documents granting ownership of pistol to WWII vet dated FEB 12 - 46 I'd like to know manufacturing date and any detailed description if possible, as well as an approx value (or range at least) I'll try to attach scans Thanks in advance Attached Thumbnails

04-08-2010, 09:38 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Dave, I agree with John. A very nice and desirable piece to have, if all original and correct. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-16-2010, 12:33 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"The "N.339" would be a unit property mark associated with the North Sea command (Keil was the armory)". Marc, Kiel was the "Ostsee" Naval station. The "Nordsee" station was at Wilhelmshaven. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-16-2010, 12:47 PM	#7
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	That's a real nice Luger. Even better with the Government paperwork. Great find. Don't mean to be unfeeling or immoral but, work on the ladies house was in exchange for the pistol (if I understand your writing correctly). Since "paid" for by labor, your Dad owns it now. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

04-08-2010, 09:23 AM	#2
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	Dave, welcome. From your discription, sounds like you have a Weimar era 4"navy luger. More close ups of all proofing, including the gripstrap mark, bottom of mag, front frame ser# are nessessary for an acurate estimate of value. Looks like a good 1938 navy holster, worth a fair buck in itself, again more photos. The capture papers ad a bit to rig value also. If all correct, I would venture to say 2500- 3000 for the rig if correct. More close ups are needed of this luger. John

04-08-2010, 12:12 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	There is a good discussion of Navy Luger marking in this post: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=anchor There were addressing a question about the WW-II era, but describe how Weimar era re-worked Lugers were marked by the German Navy. The "N.339" would be a unit property mark associated with the North Sea command. The "Crown/N" or "C/N" marking is a Nitro proof marking indicating that the pistol passed high pressure testing. The Weimar era guns were manufactured after the end of World War I and before 1929 when Mauser purchased the DWM Luger manufacturing equipment and tooling. Many WW-I Lugers were refurbished since Germany was inhibited from re-arming after WW-I. I'm just starting out researching and understanding Lugers. This site and Jan Still's forum site have tremendous resources, and are frequented by international class experts. The Navy Lugers are more rare, and your gun has not been "messed with" (refinishing reduces it's value). It looks to be in very good condition, as does the holster. The papers add to your gun's value also, giving it provenance. After ensuring it's not loaded, you can disassemble it to verify that all the parts have matching numbers (most will have the last two digits of the serial number, or the entire number). That makes it more desirable and collectible. The magazine bottom looks like WW-II vintage. It's not likely to have a matching number on it's base. Be very careful disassembling your gun. It would be a good time to ensure that it's clean and that parts have a light oiling with a rust preventing oil like "RemOil". I would tend to store the gun and holster separately. You can get an idea of what dealers are asking for similar guns by looking at sites like Simpson's: http://www.simpsonltd.com/

04-16-2010, 11:51 AM	#5
inheritedLuger New User Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the replies. The clip in the photos is the one used for shooting. My Dad took it to a range once just to have the chance to enjoy shooting it. I know he thoroughly cleaned it after that use. The other clip, in the holster, is the original clip, and I don't believe has been tampered with since it was brought back. The entire piece was actually hidden in an attic for decades, as the gentelman who brought it back had passed away and it was forgotten. A few years ago, my Father found a mini cooler while helping to clear out the Vets wife's attic (she's still kicking at 93) and didn't even know the pistol was hidden there till he went to clean it later. Of course he immediately informed her of it, and lucky for him she was happy to exchange it for some additional work in her home. As for me, I know the grandson of the Vet, and given the records tying the piece to his family, I feel obligated to return it to him. I was looking for the info to let him know how significant it is historically and as a collectible, as well as sentimental.

04-16-2010, 05:28 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Ron, thanks for the correction on Nordsee! Marc

04-23-2010, 11:39 AM	#10
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	I do not intend to question your decision to return it to the vet's family. However I think it would be a wise move trying to know the Vet's grandson feelings about the gun and his granpa service. The question is: would he really care? I mean, will he give the same value for the gun's story as you or a collector? It seems stupid to ask this, but if your browse through this forum (or other militaria related forum) you'll find plenty of stories of relatives selling vets belongings, souvenirs, medals, uniforms and bringbacks of all sorts in garage sales. Sometimes they just throw it in the garbage can. Simple like that as they just don't care... I'm sure others here in the Forum can confirm that. Just my two cents. Douglas.

04-23-2010, 12:29 PM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Dear Dave, My sympathy for your loss. I must side with the others in questioning your decision to return this pistol to the Vet's grandson. As I understand it, your Dad paid for this gun, fair and square, with his labor. His intent, surely, was that it be passed on to you. I think you should respect his wishes. Best regards, Norm