A General Question for Those Who Know

01-19-2002, 03:35 PM

Given that broad statements about Lugers seldom apply 100 percent, is it reasonable to think that an Imperial Luger without 1920 markings, or "Germany," or import marks would be a WWI bring-back? Supposedly all Reichswehr guns had the 1920 (or 1921) property marks, so Imperial Lugers used by German forces in WWII should have been so marked. Or did the Germans hide out quantities of guns that were "discovered" in the late 1930s and never had Reichswehr property marks? Are there Imperial Lugers known to be used in WWII which lack Reichswehr marks? If so, are they common?

Lonnie Zimmerman · 01-19-2002, 03:43 PM

Imperial Lugers were used in WW11 without the 1920 stamp, and were very common, especially Police models with the sear safety.

Lonnie

Kyrie · 01-19-2002, 04:32 PM

Hi Bill,

Post Great War (and early Weimar Republic) Germany was pure chaos. Entire cities went Socialist, there were a number of private and semi-private wars fought, assassination was a common form of political expression, and many German interests did their best to confuse, befuddle, and generally evade the watchful eyes of all the Commissions established by the Versailles Treaty to implement the provisions of the Treaty (Ã¢??Chaos is GodÃ¢??s gift to the ambitious manÃ¢?Â).

A Great War Luger without the Ã¢??1920Ã¢?Â property stamp is nothing more than a Luger without the property stamp. We have no way of knowing why it lacks the stamp. It could be a bring back (from any time beginning with the date on the Luger to today), a 1920 Commercial that was not stamped Ã¢??GermanyÃ¢?Â, the personal property of a German immigrant, or something else entirely. At this point in time there is just no way of knowing :-(

Best regards,

Kyrie

tom · 01-20-2002, 03:45 AM

Hi Bill,

And a tip 'o the hat to my esteemed colleague and knowledgable Kyrie, with whom I could not agree more. The conditions in Germany from November 1918 until the establishment of the III Reich were nothing short of pandemonium. Quite simply stated, no one was in charge-not the "centeral government" such as it existed, not the Reichswehr, emasculated by the Versailles treaty, and not the local police,who were in many cases little more than thinly veiled paramilitary units who had sanction to be armed. Hence the rise of the Sturm Abteilung bully-boys who siezed the streets one beer hall at a time.

The great news in this otherwise ultimately sad story is that it has created a veritable bonanza of varieties of property markings, proof marks and unit stampings for us toggle top heads to ponder.

The seemingly infinite varieties of markings and configurations of Weimar-era Lugers is fascinating. As one who has centered on Navy pieces, Weimar Navy pieces are exceptionally interesting. One of my favorite's is my LP-08 rig with Imperial Army,Weimar Navy and Kreigsmarine markings. I just wish it could talk!

Tom

01-20-2002, 03:49 AM

Thanks for all replies, both on the board and via e-mail. It seems that an Imperial Luger found in the US today with no import marks, "Germany," or 1920, could be either a WWI or WWII bring-back. Or something else.

Kyrie · 01-20-2002, 05:36 PM

Hi Tom,

Ã¢??Toggle headsÃ¢?Â - I like that

On the subject of well traveled pistols (and this is a bit off-topic) I once came across a C96 that quite interesting. It was in the Wartime Commercial serial number range, had Imperial German acceptance stamp, a Russian Tula proof, and an inscription in a language I didnÃ¢??t recognize. At one point I showed the pistol to a fellow collector (who was a naturalized US citizen, having been a refugee from Tibet) and he recognized and translated the inscription. It was a presentation inscription in a Tibetan dialect.

Apparently this C96 had been originally purchased for use by a soldier in the Imperial German Army, had been captured or stolen by the Russians, who had proofed it for some reason. It had then made its way to Tibet (a White Russian fleeing the Reds?), had then been seized by MaoÃ¢??s people, and was finally exported to the US in the late 1980Ã¢??s.

This is another one I wish could speak. But if it could we would need at least five different languages to understand its tale!

Best regards,

Kyrie

01-19-2002, 03:35 PM	#1
Bill Utterback Guest Posts: n/a	A General Question for Those Who Know Given that broad statements about Lugers seldom apply 100 percent, is it reasonable to think that an Imperial Luger without 1920 markings, or "Germany," or import marks would be a WWI bring-back? Supposedly all Reichswehr guns had the 1920 (or 1921) property marks, so Imperial Lugers used by German forces in WWII should have been so marked. Or did the Germans hide out quantities of guns that were "discovered" in the late 1930s and never had Reichswehr property marks? Are there Imperial Lugers known to be used in WWII which lack Reichswehr marks? If so, are they common?

01-19-2002, 03:43 PM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: A General Question for Those Who Know Imperial Lugers were used in WW11 without the 1920 stamp, and were very common, especially Police models with the sear safety. Lonnie

01-19-2002, 04:32 PM	#3
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: A General Question for Those Who Know Hi Bill, Post Great War (and early Weimar Republic) Germany was pure chaos. Entire cities went Socialist, there were a number of private and semi-private wars fought, assassination was a common form of political expression, and many German interests did their best to confuse, befuddle, and generally evade the watchful eyes of all the Commissions established by the Versailles Treaty to implement the provisions of the Treaty (Ã¢??Chaos is GodÃ¢??s gift to the ambitious manÃ¢?Â). A Great War Luger without the Ã¢??1920Ã¢?Â property stamp is nothing more than a Luger without the property stamp. We have no way of knowing why it lacks the stamp. It could be a bring back (from any time beginning with the date on the Luger to today), a 1920 Commercial that was not stamped Ã¢??GermanyÃ¢?Â, the personal property of a German immigrant, or something else entirely. At this point in time there is just no way of knowing :-( Best regards, Kyrie

01-20-2002, 03:45 AM	#4
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: A General Question for Those Who Know Hi Bill, And a tip 'o the hat to my esteemed colleague and knowledgable Kyrie, with whom I could not agree more. The conditions in Germany from November 1918 until the establishment of the III Reich were nothing short of pandemonium. Quite simply stated, no one was in charge-not the "centeral government" such as it existed, not the Reichswehr, emasculated by the Versailles treaty, and not the local police,who were in many cases little more than thinly veiled paramilitary units who had sanction to be armed. Hence the rise of the Sturm Abteilung bully-boys who siezed the streets one beer hall at a time. The great news in this otherwise ultimately sad story is that it has created a veritable bonanza of varieties of property markings, proof marks and unit stampings for us toggle top heads to ponder. The seemingly infinite varieties of markings and configurations of Weimar-era Lugers is fascinating. As one who has centered on Navy pieces, Weimar Navy pieces are exceptionally interesting. One of my favorite's is my LP-08 rig with Imperial Army,Weimar Navy and Kreigsmarine markings. I just wish it could talk! Tom

01-20-2002, 03:49 AM	#5
Bill Utterback Guest Posts: n/a	Re: A General Question for Those Who Know Thanks for all replies, both on the board and via e-mail. It seems that an Imperial Luger found in the US today with no import marks, "Germany," or 1920, could be either a WWI or WWII bring-back. Or something else.

01-20-2002, 05:36 PM	#6
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: A General Question for Those Who Know Hi Tom, Ã¢??Toggle headsÃ¢?Â - I like that On the subject of well traveled pistols (and this is a bit off-topic) I once came across a C96 that quite interesting. It was in the Wartime Commercial serial number range, had Imperial German acceptance stamp, a Russian Tula proof, and an inscription in a language I didnÃ¢??t recognize. At one point I showed the pistol to a fellow collector (who was a naturalized US citizen, having been a refugee from Tibet) and he recognized and translated the inscription. It was a presentation inscription in a Tibetan dialect. Apparently this C96 had been originally purchased for use by a soldier in the Imperial German Army, had been captured or stolen by the Russians, who had proofed it for some reason. It had then made its way to Tibet (a White Russian fleeing the Reds?), had then been seized by MaoÃ¢??s people, and was finally exported to the US in the late 1980Ã¢??s. This is another one I wish could speak. But if it could we would need at least five different languages to understand its tale! Best regards, Kyrie