Old 30 cal.

[CAP Black]

What vintage is a 30 cal. with only visable number being the one under the front of the barrel, with no proof marks, DMW on the toggle, normal parts are strawed, no export or import info. Any uniqueness related to it? It doesn't have a grip safety but does have the stck lug.
Thanks
Jack

[Douglas Jr.]

It is an "alphabet Luger", according to Jan Still's definition.
These guns were made for the civilian market during the 20s (in fact after 1922 and before 1930). Someone will give you a more accurate date.

Douglas

[CAP Black]

Not worth much I assume?

[Edward Tinker]

Hard to say, all matching, original shape?

$500 min, could be $1100 if really nice (so $600-$800 is normal for one in nice shape)

Personally, I see most 30 luger (7.65mm lugers) go for less than a military 9mm, and especially so if mismatched or reblued.

And there should / needs to be a crown N on it in several places, that is the proof marking, if very light or gone, it might have been reblued.

Ed

[glock30]

This gun can be devoid of the Nitro proof, and or any and be completely legitimate. Just research it on the computer or any Luger book, John Walter, Datig etc. Or e-mail some of the Luger collectors that do not participate in this forum. I have a guys name I can send you. Call him directly. I seen many 1920 commercials without nitro proofs.

[Neil Young]

What are you trying to say glock30? What's the inference?

Neil

[Ron Smith]

"This gun can be devoid of the Nitro proof, and or any and be completely legitimate. Just research it on the computer or any Luger book, John Walter, Datig etc. Or e-mail some of the Luger collectors that do not participate in this forum."

Some of the of the people who wrote the books, participate on this forum.

"I seen many 1920 commercials without nitro proofs."

Don't know how many "legitimate" un-proofed Commercial Lugers you've seen, but Germany has very strict 'Mandatory' proof laws. A firearm cannot be sold legally without proof marks.


There is an export or import mark on the side rail. It appears to be the required 'GERMANY' export mark.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by glock30

This gun can be devoid of the Nitro proof, and or any and be completely legitimate. Just research it on the computer or any Luger book, John Walter, Datig etc. Or e-mail some of the Luger collectors that do not participate in this forum. I have a guys name I can send you. Call him directly. I seen many 1920 commercials without nitro proofs.

send me his name, likely I will know him unless he is off-line / no internet

And as Ron stated, it was a law that it be nitro proofed, there are a few that aren't, but that is a very few out of tens of thousands produced, just for the german market and the USA market. It is export marked as stated and that is a sign that it would be proofed.

Ed

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

It is export marked as stated and that is a sign that it would be proofed.

Ed

Actually, I would be more inclined to think that is a sign it would not be marked as proofed. Many of the Lugers bearing a GERMANY export stamp do not bear any proof marks. Since they were not being sold in Germany and there was no commercial requirements for proofing imported guns in the US at that time, it was kind of up to the whim of the manufacturer whether the guns bore proof marks or not (I suspect the guns were "proofed" as a quality control measure but not necessarily formally marked as such). Just my WAG.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, this is a 'm' suffix, made in the mid 1920's, looking at Dwight's records, the vast, vast majority of those alphabet lugers are marked with a crown N, whether marked germany or not.

What Ron Smith said is what I have been told, to leave the factory, it had to receive proof markings, going to the USA or not.

I don't mind being corrected, but would like to see evidence to the fact that exports did not have to be marked? I only remember reading that the early lugers were found not export marked, i.e. 1900's in the test range.

Ed

[glock30]

There are 1920/23 up to 29 Commercial Lugers void of the Nitro Proof, or any proofs. Again. I asssume from what Mr. Wood is saying, he agree's with me? I have seen them, and they were not refinished in any way. Not all were even marked GERMANY but sold in the United States commercial market. They were original. I will find the name I am referring too.Proofing was a European requirement, it is something we do not do in the States. Hence, can we say they must be proof marked? we However, this also does not mean they weren't proof tested. Or inferior or faulty guns.

Another example are Glocks. SOme bear the Austrian Nitro proof and were sold in The United States, and some do not. NOW the 4th generation Glock made for the US market are no longer proof marked for they aren't tested, but their barrels bare the corrrect hardening mark, and get this. Glock again in 2012 will resume proof testing and proof marking their guns for the US market. But the one not proof tested are just as good as the one's that aren't and they left Austria that way. It is a Euro requirment not a US one, so if the guns are meant to be shipped here, they can be void of it, Germany had a lot of other things to worry about in 1923 than proof marking all their lugers.

Thanks.
Gene

[glock30]

This is right from your page that I happened to stumble on while searching 1920 commercial Lugers void of proof marks "There is considerable variation in the 1923 Commercials. Proof marks may or may not be where they are expected, and all proof marks may or may not be present." AND 23 commercials are alphabet Lugers.....but I am not basing my opinion on this, is it from all the guns I have seen over the last 25 years. This is just one example, I also have a huge collection of Guns And Ammo books with Luger articles so you guys are going to have to give me time. But Ron agree's with me.

http://www.lugerforum.com/owner_gallery/owner1g.html

As I said, there might be Lugers with NO proof marks at all present and this is on your forum. I wish I could find more and I will get my guys name.

[Edward Tinker]

uh, ok, that is a thread from about 2004, did not even know it existed, but it doesn't matter, this is a bit newer, click on the bottom for the pdf and you can see that many are marked and you are right, many are not, but lots are.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...780#post129780

I really don't care if you give me this guys name, what good will it do? I know lots of luger experts, and like I said, do not mind being wrong.

What I said was that the vast majority of Alphabet Lugers appear to be crown N marked, whether that is on the breachblock or side. (you can read Dwight's info there in the newer subject).

I guess I get my back up because a new guy comes on forum to tell everyone how wrong we are. Well we have all the books too, we discuss info on the forum and if we come up with new information that is fine, it is called good research.

Ed

[glock30]

I am not telling you anything. I am not trying to tell you anything , nor did I mention your name as if I was targeting you, ANYWHERE. I am sorry I came across that way. I might be new to the forum but certainly am not new to lugers, I thought I was being helpful. I am sorry you took it that way, I am wrong on a million things, that is life.

[Edward Tinker]

My apologies sent your way then; as we all want to learn, i learned today that not all of the crown N's were marked and thought they were


Ed

[glock30]

My opinion is this, especially the situation in Germany in the early 20's, daughters were selling their bodies in the streets for a jar of milk, they did not do anything by the rules than, with commercial Lugers of that era, you can see anything. I seen them were they were just thrown into vat of sand to polish the parts and were salt blued, and were real.You were the one's that told me I was wrong, two of you, However Ron Wood I guess has senority so you didn't confront him he said the same thing I did.

Thanks and Again my apoligies Ed, however I never once said , "ED YOU ARE WRONG."

[MFC]

The problem with an unproofed Alphabet comm. is you will always have to defend it. I would not buy one unless it was priced at a low shooter price. The vast majority are proofed. The only other variations I can think of that are not properly proofed are the Test Eagle range and a small run of M1906 American Eagles.

[Vlim]

The majority of the post war Mauser Parabellum pistols that were sold on the US market had no official proof markings either, as it was not required by law. Instead, Mauser opted for their own 'in house' proof marking, the FBM proof.

Interams did buy a number of reworked Ulm-proofed Mauser Parabellums later on.

[glock30]

Incidentally, this is what nitro Proof is, here it is. It is a mark to indicate the gun was pressure tested with a cartridge at least 30 percent over it's normal pressure.(This number might be wrong) Just in case you were wondering what everyone was talking about. NOTE: MIne is 9025 Prefix N or as they might call a lazy n?, not sure either if this is a lazy n? My gun has the proof, your doesn't. So we will leave it up to one of these guys to decdie how many more days mine was made than yours, but I bet they were made in the same month, that part of it, I DO NOT know, but I bet someone on here knows the duration of time between 34XXn and 90XXn.

Anyone?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by glock30

It is a mark to indicate the gun was pressure tested with a cartridge at least 30 percent over it's normal pressure.

I don't know about Germany, but IIRC in the front of a Speer Reloading manual it said that US proof loads were 20% over...