Swiss Gunsmith Acceptance Mark

Steve D · 11-23-2011, 07:38 PM

Luger Forum - Could a Swiss collector help with a question for a first time poster? I have a 1906/1920 (?) re-work for which I have not been able to identify the gunsmith mark. The pistol is a very early commercial serial number built on the long frame. Re-worked in Switzerland, it has a new barrel and I believe new receiver (marked internally only with a "G", which indicates it was manufactured in 1912 (?). Close examination of the barrel/receiver index mark indicates that no other barrel had been mated to the receiver. I suspect it also got new grips as they have no internal numbers. The barrel is serialed to the frame and Crown-N proofed, with the "lazy" Crown-N proof stamped also on the left side of the receiver.

My question centers on the Swiss gunsmith acceptance mark. It is identical to the well-known Fluckiger mark, but instead of the "FZ" initials, this mark has the initials "RB". The mark was also stamped on the bottom of the magazine, and filled with some sort of paint.

Was the enrayed Federal Cross a standard Swiss mark for which any gunsmith added his particular initials? Also, do the Crown-N proofs indicate that the gun was returned to Germany for proofing? Why would it not have been submitted for Swiss proofing which would have satisfied that countries requirements? And then, why is the receiver proof sideways? Shouldn't it have been vertical by this date? Lastly, is there a definitive was to identify the barrel as manufactured by Hammerli rather than a Swiss military piece?

Thanks in advance.

Ron Wood · 11-23-2011, 08:46 PM

Steve,
I have seen a Swiss rework with a FB rather than a FZ, which I presume refers to a Bern (or possibly Basel) workshop rather than the usual Zurich location, but the RB is new to me. I can’t tell from your photos whether the chamber bears the large enrayed Federal Cross?

tudorbug · 11-23-2011, 09:40 PM

Absolutely beautiful photos! Good grief!! Wonderful!!!

David

Steve D · 11-24-2011, 12:36 AM

Yes, the chamber bears the early "Cross in Sunburst". Thanks for the nice note on the photos. I am an amateur photographer and enjoy photographing the pistols. -SD

sheepherder · 11-24-2011, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve D

Yes, the chamber bears the early "Cross in Sunburst".

Could you post a pic of that chamber graphic, and of the toggle inscription also??? (Maybe just one pic of the top of the Luger)...

Very nice looking Swiss example!!!

Ron Wood · 11-24-2011, 02:34 PM

I have been reviewing Bobba in an attempt to identify your Luger. It appears that it may be one of the small lot of 1906 Commercial Swiss. Apparently there were not many of these guns produced and their production was mixed in with other commercial and contract production of that period, so there is no definitive serial number “block” or range exclusive to these guns. The 26161 serial number would certainly support the post 1906 timeframe. The horizontal Crown/N receiver proof is correct for a Model 1906 produced after 1912 (which fits in with your observation about the "G" receiver marking), and it was originally produced and proofed in Germany, not returned for later proofing. It obviously has been reworked and rebarreled by, at this point, an unknown gunsmith…possibly a subcontractor to Flukiger or one of his workmen. These guns were reworked/produced for Swiss civilian shooting sports.

I have not discovered any way to positively identify a Hammerli produced barrel, but the thick flange on your gun is certainly typical of some of their known pieces.

sheepherder · 11-24-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

Maybe this is a 9 mm replacement barrel?

It has the high front sight base of the 7.65mm barrels, and the accompanying front sight blade...

Steve D · 11-24-2011, 04:14 PM

Thank you for researching my pistol, Ron.

Are you saying that the receiver is original to the frame? I assumed that the very low SN on the frame indicated that it (the original gun) was manufactured shortly after the switch to the New Model in 1906 (at about SN 25000?) and that the receiver (which bears no SN on the recoil lug) was a factory replacement manufactured some years later. Maybe not so?

I guess my last question is why the new Swiss-made barrel has the German Crown N and not the Swiss Cross proof? -SD

sheepherder · 11-24-2011, 05:03 PM

Thanks for the chamber graphic!

I don't know why, but I was expecting the toggle to have the "Bern" inscription...

Ron Wood · 11-25-2011, 12:23 PM

Steve,
Actually, I agree with you that the receiver is a replacement. The serial number of the frame is only roughly 1000 away from the start of Model 1906 production placing its manufacture no later than late 1906/early 1907, whereas the receiver was most certainly produced in 1912. However, I am still of the opinion that the barrel and receiver were originally proofed in Germany and not sent back at a later date. Possibly it was an OEM part from DWM ordered by the workshop that did the rework.
I am leaping to the conclusion that it started life as one of the small lot of 1906 Swiss Commercials based on its final Swiss configuration. It could very well be an early standard 1906 Commercial that was “transformed” into a Swiss when it was reworked. At any rate, it is an early 1906 and a very interesting piece. I would have it in my collection based upon its condition, markings and as a stimulus for interesting conversations!

11-23-2011, 07:38 PM	#1
Steve D User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 23 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Swiss Gunsmith Acceptance Mark Luger Forum - Could a Swiss collector help with a question for a first time poster? I have a 1906/1920 (?) re-work for which I have not been able to identify the gunsmith mark. The pistol is a very early commercial serial number built on the long frame. Re-worked in Switzerland, it has a new barrel and I believe new receiver (marked internally only with a "G", which indicates it was manufactured in 1912 (?). Close examination of the barrel/receiver index mark indicates that no other barrel had been mated to the receiver. I suspect it also got new grips as they have no internal numbers. The barrel is serialed to the frame and Crown-N proofed, with the "lazy" Crown-N proof stamped also on the left side of the receiver. My question centers on the Swiss gunsmith acceptance mark. It is identical to the well-known Fluckiger mark, but instead of the "FZ" initials, this mark has the initials "RB". The mark was also stamped on the bottom of the magazine, and filled with some sort of paint. Was the enrayed Federal Cross a standard Swiss mark for which any gunsmith added his particular initials? Also, do the Crown-N proofs indicate that the gun was returned to Germany for proofing? Why would it not have been submitted for Swiss proofing which would have satisfied that countries requirements? And then, why is the receiver proof sideways? Shouldn't it have been vertical by this date? Lastly, is there a definitive was to identify the barrel as manufactured by Hammerli rather than a Swiss military piece? Thanks in advance. Attached Thumbnails

11-23-2011, 08:46 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Steve, I have seen a Swiss rework with a FB rather than a FZ, which I presume refers to a Bern (or possibly Basel) workshop rather than the usual Zurich location, but the RB is new to me. I can’t tell from your photos whether the chamber bears the large enrayed Federal Cross? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-24-2011, 12:36 AM	#4
Steve D User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 23 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Yes, the chamber bears the early "Cross in Sunburst". Thanks for the nice note on the photos. I am an amateur photographer and enjoy photographing the pistols. -SD Attached Thumbnails

11-24-2011, 02:34 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I have been reviewing Bobba in an attempt to identify your Luger. It appears that it may be one of the small lot of 1906 Commercial Swiss. Apparently there were not many of these guns produced and their production was mixed in with other commercial and contract production of that period, so there is no definitive serial number “block” or range exclusive to these guns. The 26161 serial number would certainly support the post 1906 timeframe. The horizontal Crown/N receiver proof is correct for a Model 1906 produced after 1912 (which fits in with your observation about the "G" receiver marking), and it was originally produced and proofed in Germany, not returned for later proofing. It obviously has been reworked and rebarreled by, at this point, an unknown gunsmith…possibly a subcontractor to Flukiger or one of his workmen. These guns were reworked/produced for Swiss civilian shooting sports. I have not discovered any way to positively identify a Hammerli produced barrel, but the thick flange on your gun is certainly typical of some of their known pieces. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-24-2011, 04:14 PM	#8
Steve D User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 23 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you for researching my pistol, Ron. Are you saying that the receiver is original to the frame? I assumed that the very low SN on the frame indicated that it (the original gun) was manufactured shortly after the switch to the New Model in 1906 (at about SN 25000?) and that the receiver (which bears no SN on the recoil lug) was a factory replacement manufactured some years later. Maybe not so? I guess my last question is why the new Swiss-made barrel has the German Crown N and not the Swiss Cross proof? -SD Attached Thumbnails

11-23-2011, 09:40 PM	#3
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Absolutely beautiful photos! Good grief!! Wonderful!!! David

11-24-2011, 05:03 PM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Thanks for the chamber graphic! I don't know why, but I was expecting the toggle to have the "Bern" inscription... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-25-2011, 12:23 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Steve, Actually, I agree with you that the receiver is a replacement. The serial number of the frame is only roughly 1000 away from the start of Model 1906 production placing its manufacture no later than late 1906/early 1907, whereas the receiver was most certainly produced in 1912. However, I am still of the opinion that the barrel and receiver were originally proofed in Germany and not sent back at a later date. Possibly it was an OEM part from DWM ordered by the workshop that did the rework. I am leaping to the conclusion that it started life as one of the small lot of 1906 Swiss Commercials based on its final Swiss configuration. It could very well be an early standard 1906 Commercial that was “transformed” into a Swiss when it was reworked. At any rate, it is an early 1906 and a very interesting piece. I would have it in my collection based upon its condition, markings and as a stimulus for interesting conversations! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 11-25-2011 at 03:57 PM.