Seeking comments on plans for '06 AE

ithacaartist · 11-25-2011, 02:51 AM

Gentlemen:

One of my wards is an '06 American Eagle, s.n. 66670, 7.65 mm.

Its numbers match except mag (of course), unnumbered grips, and mismatched (#1113) 3 7/8" bbl. The wear on the grips (on the right trigger finger area, the left middle finger area and bottoms of both) is to a point where it's really the last chance to see where the checkering lines were. Classic missing chunk under safety lever...

Though there's but a ghost of the original straw remaining, a little thin on the grip straps, significantly holster-worn on the high spots--front corners of the frame, edges of trigger guard, and the take-down lever's front edge is worn enough to appear slightly chamfered, the general appearance of the finish ain't that bad, really.

There's evidence of an early refinish. The toggle axle pin is not in the white, and under magnification, the bluing reveals itself to be over a general speckling of small pits, tiny dings and scratches, and an overall landscape of lightly bead-blasted teeny peen marks. The numbers and proofs have no halos and under magnification their edges show the effects of bht blasting cleanup. Still, the refinish looks fairly good, overall, unless you whip out the ol' 10X; and the interior is properly in the white--rather, in the brown (full of patina).

The barrel, of incorrect length, numbered to a military gun, has a very funky sight. The sight base is military style in profile, but the sight blade is incorrect. Its profile starts with a straight, vertical back end, then a flat top that slants slightly toward the front, then a radius down to the front of the sight base. The blade is sharp like a knife, and the sight base's width has been reduced about 1/4 by filing/grinding, presumably to match the width of the janky replacement sight blade. The filing/grinding has affected both components.

Whoa, I'm not done yet! The topper is that there is a 1/4" chunk out of the right slide rail, almost as deep as its groove, as if someone had dropped the upper and broken this out on impact. I'm confident that it will not affect function or safety in any way, but intend to TIG it back full and intact at some point.

With as many issues as Carter's has pills, this is my .30 Luger shooter! It functions well. I cannot give definitive data on its accuracy at this point, but preliminary attempts to put a hole in a piece of typing paper failed at 10 yards! At 5 yds. (!) it seemed to be off in the 4:00 direction. I don't think it's me, 'cause I can get a 4" group at 10 yds. with my 9mm. 29/70 Mauser. I've shot either gun only a few times.

OK, I could pass this Luger on to somebody else and not have to think about these issues (Sell one of my what!?); Or I could send it to Tom, Hugh, Thor, G.T., some or all, to restore it where it looks like a good example, and really depart from its current degree of originality.

1. Change barrel and sight to correct, even if mismatched or unmarked?

2. Change barrel to 9mm. so I can afford to shoot it--and easily obtain ammo for it (without hand-loading)?

3. Refresh grips and repair chip?

4. re-refinish, and refresh straw?

Y'all know that I'll do what I really want to do, maybe even whether I can really afford it or not. But as well as testing my descriptive and narrative abilities, I'm foremost calling for a reality check, here. Ironically, tomorrow is Picture Day, and I vow to spice this post up with some .jpg's; but I thought I'd get the ball rolling. After that, we can be even more specific. In the meantime, any thoughts based on what I've described so far, whether I'm wasting my time or money (but not love) if I plan to address the gun's issues one way or the other, would be most welcome. What would you do? How pretty did you make your shooter? How much money did you bury in a shooter?

David Parker

Ron Wood · 11-25-2011, 11:56 AM

The question here is not one of economics as the cost of restoration may very well equal or exceed its final value. HOWEVER, having a beauriful, well functioning shooter that will be an object of envy at the range brings a bit of pride and gladness to the heart that can't be measured in dollars. If it makes you happy and it fits within your "fun money"...go for it!

P.S. Can you do your own TIG?

ithacaartist · 11-25-2011, 05:42 PM

I've filled up available room for pics for this reply. If anyone wants to see more, or different, let me know. The firing pin has no number, so will omit it and its related parts for now.

ithacaartist · 11-25-2011, 05:52 PM

Since I'm messing with strictly shooters, I'll be attempting to hang on for more than one learning curve--checkering and refinishing. It will be a personal challenge for now, but if I can get a grip on the techniques and sufficient number of details for these activities, maybe I can do some of this stuff for others as well.
Yes, Ron, TIG on premises; and I have at least two colleagues with younger, steadier hands and eyes that can still focus! I'll definitely be doing the prep, fitting, and fixture-making, if not the entire jobs. (Another is to restore the stock lug on my 1917 DWM LP.08.) I've been welding/fabricating since 1978.

I'm lacking reference books to research the mfg. date for this pistol; li'l help, please?

Ron Wood · 11-25-2011, 06:48 PM

You are in luck. Your Model 1906 was produced after 1908, so it has the "short" Type V frame and receiver. Therefore installing a 9mm replacement barrel is a snap. Finding a barrel, particularly in 9mm, for the earlier "long"frame/receiver is nigh on to impossible. I'd go for a six-incher if you are building a shooter!

crgkstnr · 11-26-2011, 06:41 PM

My non-expert opinion is:

1 Yes, change the barrel. You'd get the barrel you wanted, take care of the front sight issue, and not really lose any remaining originality since the old barrel could always be reinstalled.

2 Yes to the 9mm barrel if want a convenient shooter. If shooting it isn't so important, Lugers at Random shows the slim taper 4 3/4" 7.65mm barrel with this model also. Is that slim taper barrel hard to get? Allright :-) the slim taper barrel is what I'd like to get if the pistol were mine.

3 How about setting aside the present grips and fitting some replacements?

4 If there is any doubt about refinishing, postpone that decision. You may get more satisfaction from the barrel, grip and rail work and not want a relatively expensive refinish.

Could you show a picture of the broken area on the receiver rail? I'm wondering if it might have been done by a receiver "wrench". Is the receiver twisted a bit and effecting accuracy?

ithacaartist · 11-27-2011, 02:44 AM

Here are the ones I didn't have room for last post... If a receiver wrench was applied (or mis-applied) to this area, maybe it was the cause of this damage. I think one of my pics of the removed upper shows the gall in the barrel from its travels before or du its installation here on this gun. Someone has noticeably obscured the pipe's serial number, and there's a dent in the barrel's rear flange, visible in pic of the upper's bottom.

Craig, I'd be shooting way more 7.65 if it were more available, and more economical. Remington and Winchester are not producing it any more, and what stock remains goes for around 60 bucks for a box of 50. Fiocchi can be had for around $25 per box, I've waited a couple months to score some at that price, as it seems sold out at those outlets with that price. It turned up recently at Military Supply, so I ordered 7 boxes. The general direction that forum members who shoot .30 Luger have taken is to hand load. I'll probably get around to that, but it will mean an investment in the necessary equipment, plus the quantum leap of acquiring another set of craft skills and knowledge. For now, the 9mm. barrel would be the way to go. I have a 6'' 29/70 Mauser in 9mm. bbl., so I'd try to find one that's 4 3/4" to maintain the '06 flavor, and be able to feed it WalMart WWB. And I can enjoy my better '06 AE with original barrel in 7.65, just not as often as the 9's. To tell the truth, I've actually been having a blast the last few weeks with a pair of Erma La-22's! The details of my definite success with them is meat for another topic in the off-topic section, but I must say it's cheap shootin', for sure, with .22 lr! I'd collect and use a functioning conversion kit for one of my real Lugers if I could afford one, but in the meantime, these wannabes keep me amused. They are fantastic for practicing the clearing of jams and stovepipes and failures to fire, not to mention mag lip tuning!

Ron Wood · 11-27-2011, 11:34 AM

Ouch! The poor thing certainly has received some ham-handed treatment in the past. Thankfully, you will give it a second and better lease on life.

ithacaartist · 11-27-2011, 07:28 PM

Ben, I'll lay this on the pic. The emblem is still legible in person, deep enough to be OK. The edges of everything have been softened by the bead blasting but since the overall edges on the gun are sharp, except for the areas of holster wear mentioned above, I'm thinking it was not actually buffed much, if at all, in prep for the finish.

crgkstnr · 11-27-2011, 09:53 PM

It seems a 9mm barrel would be a good choice David. If you choose not to refinish, maybe someone like luger doc would have a nice used barrel with blue that is close to the pistol's.

I've rust blued a couple of shooter lugers and found it rewarding. It is tedious if sanding and that Pilkington's isn't the original formula. Do people use a gentler blast media when rust bluing and avoid sanding altogether?
Craig

ithacaartist · 11-28-2011, 10:32 AM

I have no idea what was used to blast this pistol. Generally, one can "blast" with anything that will make through a blaster. Sand, carborundum, steel shot, glass beads, and eggshells are some of the media of which I have heard. I'd wager that something in the range of eggshell would likely be appropriate for a blued finish, but remember, this is a physical process and the energy of the medium is transferred to the surface, the collision knocks off material.

The surface finish of a Luger was originally established by milling, filing, or sanding, and I'd include buffing if postwar Mausers count. Under magnification, you can see exactly what the finish was established with, as all these processes leave their own distinctive evidence. Blasting of course leaves evidence, too, in the form of tiny, tiny dents; their size depends on the blast medium's aggregate size, aggregate hardness, and its velocity. Anyway, blasting seems to clean and even out a pistol's surface to the naked eye; but look closely and you will see the difference--and the damage.

For simply removing a finish, I'd go chemical in approach. Stripping of any sort removes molecules from the surface, it's just a question of how deep and how finely the top molecules are affected; chemistry gives the results while removing/changing the least. Ever dip a silver or brass piece to clean it? You noticed that clean does not necessarily mean shiny, and shiny is another matter.

I guess if we're dealing with a shooter, all is fair game, depending on how comfortable you are disturbing history, and the extent to which you're doing it. Personally, I'm leaning toward going over this AE chemically, to clean it of anything but steel; and then abrasive processes which will reestablish the "grain" found in hand work. There will be no way to do it without softening the stampings, because material will inevitably be removed; but I'm prepared to accept the required minimum of this.

11-25-2011, 11:56 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	The question here is not one of economics as the cost of restoration may very well equal or exceed its final value. HOWEVER, having a beauriful, well functioning shooter that will be an object of envy at the range brings a bit of pride and gladness to the heart that can't be measured in dollars. If it makes you happy and it fits within your "fun money"...go for it! P.S. Can you do your own TIG? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-25-2011, 05:42 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Next, my attempt at posting coherent pics... I've filled up available room for pics for this reply. If anyone wants to see more, or different, let me know. The firing pin has no number, so will omit it and its related parts for now. Attached Thumbnails

11-25-2011, 06:48 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	You are in luck. Your Model 1906 was produced after 1908, so it has the "short" Type V frame and receiver. Therefore installing a 9mm replacement barrel is a snap. Finding a barrel, particularly in 9mm, for the earlier "long"frame/receiver is nigh on to impossible. I'd go for a six-incher if you are building a shooter! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-27-2011, 02:44 AM	#7
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	last few pics Here are the ones I didn't have room for last post... If a receiver wrench was applied (or mis-applied) to this area, maybe it was the cause of this damage. I think one of my pics of the removed upper shows the gall in the barrel from its travels before or du its installation here on this gun. Someone has noticeably obscured the pipe's serial number, and there's a dent in the barrel's rear flange, visible in pic of the upper's bottom. Craig, I'd be shooting way more 7.65 if it were more available, and more economical. Remington and Winchester are not producing it any more, and what stock remains goes for around 60 bucks for a box of 50. Fiocchi can be had for around $25 per box, I've waited a couple months to score some at that price, as it seems sold out at those outlets with that price. It turned up recently at Military Supply, so I ordered 7 boxes. The general direction that forum members who shoot .30 Luger have taken is to hand load. I'll probably get around to that, but it will mean an investment in the necessary equipment, plus the quantum leap of acquiring another set of craft skills and knowledge. For now, the 9mm. barrel would be the way to go. I have a 6'' 29/70 Mauser in 9mm. bbl., so I'd try to find one that's 4 3/4" to maintain the '06 flavor, and be able to feed it WalMart WWB. And I can enjoy my better '06 AE with original barrel in 7.65, just not as often as the 9's. To tell the truth, I've actually been having a blast the last few weeks with a pair of Erma La-22's! The details of my definite success with them is meat for another topic in the off-topic section, but I must say it's cheap shootin', for sure, with .22 lr! I'd collect and use a functioning conversion kit for one of my real Lugers if I could afford one, but in the meantime, these wannabes keep me amused. They are fantastic for practicing the clearing of jams and stovepipes and failures to fire, not to mention mag lip tuning! Attached Thumbnails

11-27-2011, 11:34 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Ouch! The poor thing certainly has received some ham-handed treatment in the past. Thankfully, you will give it a second and better lease on life. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-25-2011, 02:51 AM	#1
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Seeking comments on plans for '06 AE Gentlemen: One of my wards is an '06 American Eagle, s.n. 66670, 7.65 mm. Its numbers match except mag (of course), unnumbered grips, and mismatched (#1113) 3 7/8" bbl. The wear on the grips (on the right trigger finger area, the left middle finger area and bottoms of both) is to a point where it's really the last chance to see where the checkering lines were. Classic missing chunk under safety lever... Though there's but a ghost of the original straw remaining, a little thin on the grip straps, significantly holster-worn on the high spots--front corners of the frame, edges of trigger guard, and the take-down lever's front edge is worn enough to appear slightly chamfered, the general appearance of the finish ain't that bad, really. There's evidence of an early refinish. The toggle axle pin is not in the white, and under magnification, the bluing reveals itself to be over a general speckling of small pits, tiny dings and scratches, and an overall landscape of lightly bead-blasted teeny peen marks. The numbers and proofs have no halos and under magnification their edges show the effects of bht blasting cleanup. Still, the refinish looks fairly good, overall, unless you whip out the ol' 10X; and the interior is properly in the white--rather, in the brown (full of patina). The barrel, of incorrect length, numbered to a military gun, has a very funky sight. The sight base is military style in profile, but the sight blade is incorrect. Its profile starts with a straight, vertical back end, then a flat top that slants slightly toward the front, then a radius down to the front of the sight base. The blade is sharp like a knife, and the sight base's width has been reduced about 1/4 by filing/grinding, presumably to match the width of the janky replacement sight blade. The filing/grinding has affected both components. Whoa, I'm not done yet! The topper is that there is a 1/4" chunk out of the right slide rail, almost as deep as its groove, as if someone had dropped the upper and broken this out on impact. I'm confident that it will not affect function or safety in any way, but intend to TIG it back full and intact at some point. With as many issues as Carter's has pills, this is my .30 Luger shooter! It functions well. I cannot give definitive data on its accuracy at this point, but preliminary attempts to put a hole in a piece of typing paper failed at 10 yards! At 5 yds. (!) it seemed to be off in the 4:00 direction. I don't think it's me, 'cause I can get a 4" group at 10 yds. with my 9mm. 29/70 Mauser. I've shot either gun only a few times. OK, I could pass this Luger on to somebody else and not have to think about these issues (Sell one of my what!?); Or I could send it to Tom, Hugh, Thor, G.T., some or all, to restore it where it looks like a good example, and really depart from its current degree of originality. 1. Change barrel and sight to correct, even if mismatched or unmarked? 2. Change barrel to 9mm. so I can afford to shoot it--and easily obtain ammo for it (without hand-loading)? 3. Refresh grips and repair chip? 4. re-refinish, and refresh straw? Y'all know that I'll do what I really want to do, maybe even whether I can really afford it or not. But as well as testing my descriptive and narrative abilities, I'm foremost calling for a reality check, here. Ironically, tomorrow is Picture Day, and I vow to spice this post up with some .jpg's; but I thought I'd get the ball rolling. After that, we can be even more specific. In the meantime, any thoughts based on what I've described so far, whether I'm wasting my time or money (but not love) if I plan to address the gun's issues one way or the other, would be most welcome. What would you do? How pretty did you make your shooter? How much money did you bury in a shooter? David Parker

11-25-2011, 05:52 PM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Since I'm messing with strictly shooters, I'll be attempting to hang on for more than one learning curve--checkering and refinishing. It will be a personal challenge for now, but if I can get a grip on the techniques and sufficient number of details for these activities, maybe I can do some of this stuff for others as well. Yes, Ron, TIG on premises; and I have at least two colleagues with younger, steadier hands and eyes that can still focus! I'll definitely be doing the prep, fitting, and fixture-making, if not the entire jobs. (Another is to restore the stock lug on my 1917 DWM LP.08.) I've been welding/fabricating since 1978. I'm lacking reference books to research the mfg. date for this pistol; li'l help, please?

11-26-2011, 06:41 PM	#6
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My non-expert opinion is: 1 Yes, change the barrel. You'd get the barrel you wanted, take care of the front sight issue, and not really lose any remaining originality since the old barrel could always be reinstalled. 2 Yes to the 9mm barrel if want a convenient shooter. If shooting it isn't so important, Lugers at Random shows the slim taper 4 3/4" 7.65mm barrel with this model also. Is that slim taper barrel hard to get? Allright :-) the slim taper barrel is what I'd like to get if the pistol were mine. 3 How about setting aside the present grips and fitting some replacements? 4 If there is any doubt about refinishing, postpone that decision. You may get more satisfaction from the barrel, grip and rail work and not want a relatively expensive refinish. Could you show a picture of the broken area on the receiver rail? I'm wondering if it might have been done by a receiver "wrench". Is the receiver twisted a bit and effecting accuracy?

11-27-2011, 07:28 PM	#9
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Ben, I'll lay this on the pic. The emblem is still legible in person, deep enough to be OK. The edges of everything have been softened by the bead blasting but since the overall edges on the gun are sharp, except for the areas of holster wear mentioned above, I'm thinking it was not actually buffed much, if at all, in prep for the finish.

11-27-2011, 09:53 PM	#10
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It seems a 9mm barrel would be a good choice David. If you choose not to refinish, maybe someone like luger doc would have a nice used barrel with blue that is close to the pistol's. I've rust blued a couple of shooter lugers and found it rewarding. It is tedious if sanding and that Pilkington's isn't the original formula. Do people use a gentler blast media when rust bluing and avoid sanding altogether? Craig

11-28-2011, 10:32 AM	#11
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	I have no idea what was used to blast this pistol. Generally, one can "blast" with anything that will make through a blaster. Sand, carborundum, steel shot, glass beads, and eggshells are some of the media of which I have heard. I'd wager that something in the range of eggshell would likely be appropriate for a blued finish, but remember, this is a physical process and the energy of the medium is transferred to the surface, the collision knocks off material. The surface finish of a Luger was originally established by milling, filing, or sanding, and I'd include buffing if postwar Mausers count. Under magnification, you can see exactly what the finish was established with, as all these processes leave their own distinctive evidence. Blasting of course leaves evidence, too, in the form of tiny, tiny dents; their size depends on the blast medium's aggregate size, aggregate hardness, and its velocity. Anyway, blasting seems to clean and even out a pistol's surface to the naked eye; but look closely and you will see the difference--and the damage. For simply removing a finish, I'd go chemical in approach. Stripping of any sort removes molecules from the surface, it's just a question of how deep and how finely the top molecules are affected; chemistry gives the results while removing/changing the least. Ever dip a silver or brass piece to clean it? You noticed that clean does not necessarily mean shiny, and shiny is another matter. I guess if we're dealing with a shooter, all is fair game, depending on how comfortable you are disturbing history, and the extent to which you're doing it. Personally, I'm leaning toward going over this AE chemically, to clean it of anything but steel; and then abrasive processes which will reestablish the "grain" found in hand work. There will be no way to do it without softening the stampings, because material will inevitably be removed; but I'm prepared to accept the required minimum of this.