Post War HK #116

Hueydriver · 12-26-2011, 05:37 PM

I finally found some time to post a few photo's of my Post War HK that I aquired a couple of years ago.
As you can see in some of the photo's this pistol had attained stage 1 and stage 2 proofing. It looks all Krieghoff to me, ie flat taper of front grip strap, hardened frame ramps, flame hardened thumbprint, HK trigger, HK countersunk toggle knobs.
If it had been final proofed / serial numbered and dated would it have become a 1945 dated HK.
Or could the proofing have been done months / years prior to 1945 and the factory while attending to other business, were not paying much attention to lugers?
If there were pistols such as this in the factory at the end of the war why the controversy about 1945's?? I'm just asking as I don't know the answer.
I find this a very interesting pistol.
Comments welcome, with high hopes that John D will weigh in.
Thank you, Jesse

I should also add it has the krieghoff small 3 digit inspection mark "691" in the locking bolt well.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-26-2011, 07:46 PM

Jesse..That is a thing of beauty! A very nice pistol.

John D. · 12-26-2011, 11:32 PM

Absolutely stunning..!!! What a great post-war HK!! From the proper stamps, to the proofs, to the correct buffing marks and tell-tales to... Wonderful!!!

As well - if anyone doubts the existence of 1945 chamber dated HK's - then I challenge them to do the original research themselves. Yes, they do exist - and yes too - there are at least one spurious example. And to those that read others doubts, and then post it "as fact" - then I can challenge them to "do their own original research" and stop parroting others....

BUT...

For that? And in brief - while I'll expand upon someday, perhaps... I've viewed, authenticated and owned chamber dated 1945s - and a serialized postwar that, indeed - is chamber dated 1945 and came from a person who took it late war while he served in the 11th Division.

So - my opinion is on your piece..?? It would be terrific to view it in hand, but, based on your pictures, I will say that....

It is an excellent example and should be added to the compendium of HK research as another piece which adds to the overall puzzle...

Thanks for sharing - simply outstanding!

My thanks and best to you!

John

Hueydriver · 12-27-2011, 12:04 AM

Thank you Jerry and Thank you John for your review and analysis. I appreciate it very much.

So this HK could have very well become a chamber dated 1945 pistol but time ran out as the American troops rolled into town.

Another question John if I may, In the final stages of proofing, were pistols final proofed, then serial numbered and chamber dated, then blued? And can I assume that this pistol was waiting to be final proofed in the white when our troops took the factory and a worker probably blued and numbered the pistol for a soldier?
I have Mr. Gibsons Krieghoff book and have read it over and over, but the answer to these questions are as clear as mud to me.

Thank you so very much for taking time to consider my questions.

Jesse

John D. · 12-27-2011, 03:20 PM

Hi Jesse!

Wonderful questions - so let me answer in context to your HK specifically - which is a 2nd variation Post War. I refer to them as "PX Postwar HKs" (as opposed to Presentation PX, Internally Serialized, Parts HKs, etc).

Anyway - based on the degree of polishing and type of polishing I can discern from the photos - the cannon was either originally fit to that HK frame (both show correctly), but given large digit postwar examples - could have been actually been fitted to another frame originally (pre-May 1945). That being said - both appear to be late production Military appropriate for either second variation 1944 or, a 1945 chamber date, given the LWaA Stage I & II and proof on frame and receiver.

Remember, the large digit PX guns where made from materials left on hand, which is why most are mixed parts from (DWM, Erfurt, Simson, etc.) Without referring to my notes (and I don't have Gibson at hand - but I will correct and edit later, if needed) - but, in the making of the PX HKs - most were probably blued post-war after assembling from the parts on hand. However, from your pictures - yours appears to be primarily HK external parts (but, I can't really tell from the pics about your barrel, extractor or internals?). But the frame, sideplate, receiver, trigger, takedown, toggle/links - etc. - appear to be HK - or from what I can see...

Further, if your photo's are correct and the bluing is uniform across the entire gun - taking what we DO KNOW - that these were often comprised of parts from various manufacturers - and those too, show uniform bluing in the PX Variation - then, were blued post war for your variation.

Anyway.... I could go on about this and all the post war variations for a while, but tried to confine my reply to items regarding your Post-war specifically.

And it is a wonderful example!!!

John

John D. · 12-27-2011, 03:27 PM

And oh - as reference - I use one of my Post War "Presentation" HKs - which is still IN THE WHITE (except the barrel??!!!

)and was engraved/presented to a Member of the 11th Armored - who returned with a couple of Lugers. I was honored to be the recipient of his sideframe engraved HK, and it remains in my collection.

That HK is a wonderful model for assessing the polishing and milling work on late HK produced frames and recievers (and other parts)... I'd show pics - but it's at home and I'm at work

John

Vlim · 12-27-2011, 04:34 PM

John, it would be interesting to see the milling work on the late HK frames.

I recently got one of the 'Last Krieghoffs', a newly produced DDR VoPo from the 1950s and I'd love to compare the milling markings

John D. · 12-27-2011, 04:59 PM

That would be my pleasure to post some pics. I'll try to do that this evening when I get home - but no promises based on how today is unfolding

Best to you!

John D.

Hueydriver · 12-27-2011, 06:10 PM

John, I know your education at Luger U wasn't cheap. Especially going for the HK Masters program.

Thank you so very much for sharing your education with us.

Jesse

John D. · 12-27-2011, 11:07 PM

Hey Jesse and Vlim..!

Jesse - thank you. Honestly? HK reseach is all I've done since - well - I think? About 1981..? It's the variation - at that time, was the least known about and the most conjectured about.. So, yes - in many ways - it was an expensive education, as the very first HK I bought (for the princely sum back then - was well over $1,000) was a faked side-frame. So I was determined to "do the research" - which spanned the USA, Germany, Poland and Russia. It was, and still is - a wonderful research journey - and it still fascinates me with each HK that is brought to light...

Anyway - simply - thank you guys too... Without your posts, I wouldn't have posted all I think I know based on my own notes, in my collection and what I've verified for others....

My thanks for that,

John

12-26-2011, 07:46 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Jesse..That is a thing of beauty! A very nice pistol. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-27-2011, 04:34 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	John, it would be interesting to see the milling work on the late HK frames. I recently got one of the 'Last Krieghoffs', a newly produced DDR VoPo from the 1950s and I'd love to compare the milling markings Attached Thumbnails

12-26-2011, 05:37 PM	#1
Hueydriver User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 66 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Post War HK #116 I finally found some time to post a few photo's of my Post War HK that I aquired a couple of years ago. As you can see in some of the photo's this pistol had attained stage 1 and stage 2 proofing. It looks all Krieghoff to me, ie flat taper of front grip strap, hardened frame ramps, flame hardened thumbprint, HK trigger, HK countersunk toggle knobs. If it had been final proofed / serial numbered and dated would it have become a 1945 dated HK. Or could the proofing have been done months / years prior to 1945 and the factory while attending to other business, were not paying much attention to lugers? If there were pistols such as this in the factory at the end of the war why the controversy about 1945's?? I'm just asking as I don't know the answer. I find this a very interesting pistol. Comments welcome, with high hopes that John D will weigh in. Thank you, Jesse I should also add it has the krieghoff small 3 digit inspection mark "691" in the locking bolt well. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Hueydriver; 12-26-2011 at 07:16 PM. Reason: added item

12-26-2011, 11:32 PM	#3
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Absolutely stunning..!!! What a great post-war HK!! From the proper stamps, to the proofs, to the correct buffing marks and tell-tales to... Wonderful!!! As well - if anyone doubts the existence of 1945 chamber dated HK's - then I challenge them to do the original research themselves. Yes, they do exist - and yes too - there are at least one spurious example. And to those that read others doubts, and then post it "as fact" - then I can challenge them to "do their own original research" and stop parroting others.... BUT... For that? And in brief - while I'll expand upon someday, perhaps... I've viewed, authenticated and owned chamber dated 1945s - and a serialized postwar that, indeed - is chamber dated 1945 and came from a person who took it late war while he served in the 11th Division. So - my opinion is on your piece..?? It would be terrific to view it in hand, but, based on your pictures, I will say that.... It is an excellent example and should be added to the compendium of HK research as another piece which adds to the overall puzzle... Thanks for sharing - simply outstanding! My thanks and best to you! John

12-27-2011, 12:04 AM	#4
Hueydriver User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 66 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Thank you Jerry and Thank you John for your review and analysis. I appreciate it very much. So this HK could have very well become a chamber dated 1945 pistol but time ran out as the American troops rolled into town. Another question John if I may, In the final stages of proofing, were pistols final proofed, then serial numbered and chamber dated, then blued? And can I assume that this pistol was waiting to be final proofed in the white when our troops took the factory and a worker probably blued and numbered the pistol for a soldier? I have Mr. Gibsons Krieghoff book and have read it over and over, but the answer to these questions are as clear as mud to me. Thank you so very much for taking time to consider my questions. Jesse

12-27-2011, 03:20 PM	#5
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Jesse! Wonderful questions - so let me answer in context to your HK specifically - which is a 2nd variation Post War. I refer to them as "PX Postwar HKs" (as opposed to Presentation PX, Internally Serialized, Parts HKs, etc). Anyway - based on the degree of polishing and type of polishing I can discern from the photos - the cannon was either originally fit to that HK frame (both show correctly), but given large digit postwar examples - could have been actually been fitted to another frame originally (pre-May 1945). That being said - both appear to be late production Military appropriate for either second variation 1944 or, a 1945 chamber date, given the LWaA Stage I & II and proof on frame and receiver. Remember, the large digit PX guns where made from materials left on hand, which is why most are mixed parts from (DWM, Erfurt, Simson, etc.) Without referring to my notes (and I don't have Gibson at hand - but I will correct and edit later, if needed) - but, in the making of the PX HKs - most were probably blued post-war after assembling from the parts on hand. However, from your pictures - yours appears to be primarily HK external parts (but, I can't really tell from the pics about your barrel, extractor or internals?). But the frame, sideplate, receiver, trigger, takedown, toggle/links - etc. - appear to be HK - or from what I can see... Further, if your photo's are correct and the bluing is uniform across the entire gun - taking what we DO KNOW - that these were often comprised of parts from various manufacturers - and those too, show uniform bluing in the PX Variation - then, were blued post war for your variation. Anyway.... I could go on about this and all the post war variations for a while, but tried to confine my reply to items regarding your Post-war specifically. And it is a wonderful example!!! John

12-27-2011, 03:27 PM	#6
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	And oh - as reference - I use one of my Post War "Presentation" HKs - which is still IN THE WHITE (except the barrel??!!! )and was engraved/presented to a Member of the 11th Armored - who returned with a couple of Lugers. I was honored to be the recipient of his sideframe engraved HK, and it remains in my collection. That HK is a wonderful model for assessing the polishing and milling work on late HK produced frames and recievers (and other parts)... I'd show pics - but it's at home and I'm at work John

12-27-2011, 04:59 PM	#8
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	That would be my pleasure to post some pics. I'll try to do that this evening when I get home - but no promises based on how today is unfolding Best to you! John D.

12-27-2011, 06:10 PM	#9
Hueydriver User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 66 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	John, I know your education at Luger U wasn't cheap. Especially going for the HK Masters program. Thank you so very much for sharing your education with us. Jesse

12-27-2011, 11:07 PM	#10
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Jesse and Vlim..! Jesse - thank you. Honestly? HK reseach is all I've done since - well - I think? About 1981..? It's the variation - at that time, was the least known about and the most conjectured about.. So, yes - in many ways - it was an expensive education, as the very first HK I bought (for the princely sum back then - was well over $1,000) was a faked side-frame. So I was determined to "do the research" - which spanned the USA, Germany, Poland and Russia. It was, and still is - a wonderful research journey - and it still fascinates me with each HK that is brought to light... Anyway - simply - thank you guys too... Without your posts, I wouldn't have posted all I think I know based on my own notes, in my collection and what I've verified for others.... My thanks for that, John