New "old" man with lots of questions.

scsandlapper · 04-04-2012, 01:24 PM

Hey guys. My first post here. A little background before my questions. I have been picked by an old, as in elderly, friend of many years. We met when I worked as a gun smith/shooting instructor at a local indoor range here in Mt. Pleasant, SC. We became fast friends.
He has decided to thin out his huge collection of arms and has picked me to do the selling. I am not getting any funds from this so far and don't know it I will, but he needs the bucks and his sons don't really care about "guns".
Part of the collection is 15 Luger's, maybe be more hidden. He got most all of these when he was a student at a local vocational school in Charleston SC after WWII. Fro the most part these came off ships bringing home U.S.G.I.'s after the war. If they were caught with any weapons without the proper papers they were"relieved" of them. All weapons were thrown in a crate to be dumped at sea, or some other unpleasant end.
He and some friends were told by the dock workers they could buy them for next to nothing. Which he and others did and the dock workers got beer money.

I am going to try my first time here to post pics and ask questions.
BTW, if this is breaking any rules doing this, knowing I am planning to sell these and the others, please let me know and I delete everything and go else where. Rules is rules . I don't know how many pics I can add at one time so I'll post the 3 I have in another post here.

This is a very SMALL area of the whole collection showing the Lugers less the three I brought with me to sell. There are two to the right out of the pic with the longer barrels and tangent rear sights.

ripcord810 · 04-04-2012, 01:41 PM

Let me know what models you have.. [email protected]

alanint · 04-04-2012, 01:50 PM

Welcome aboard, Karl!! No problem with you posting here to try and move the Lugers. You may even be able to sell some of the other guns, as well.
The key here is that you will need to do some work in order to get your friend top dollar for his guns. This includes describing and photographing each pistol individually, including photos of ALL markings and in many cases (as in Lugers) disassembling them to see if all internals match. Careful, meticulous presentation will get you the best price estimates from the board, which will allow you to ask fair prices for each gun. Although it is not common here, avoid personal messages and contacts wanting to buy from you now privately or in bulk. This will never be the best deal for your friend.

John Sabato · 04-04-2012, 02:03 PM

J.R.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

You can "discuss" all the guns you want here, and your plans to sell them if you wish... but WHEN you decide to sell any of them, you must post them in the FOR SALE forum, and they must have a fixed price in your posting. No auctions are permitted. Please read the sticky note at the top of that forum for more details on the rules. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

-John

scsandlapper · 04-04-2012, 02:14 PM

OK Here is Luger #1. He called it a "lunch box" Luger. 9 mm. The frame and trigger are marked "802". The barrel and receiver are marked "81". Trigger plate is marked "69".
If I am misnaming and parts please correct me. Bore is nice with what I call "fine sand pitting" but bright. I hope you guys can help.

Number 2 is a Commercial model, I think. .30 cal. Has "Germany"on the toggle top and "38" on the back end. Frame is marked "6038k", locking plate and trigger are marked "38", barrel is marked "6038k". Mag is not the right number. ( I will get ALL the Luger mags brought over and see if any match up.)
Bore is bright with fine sand like pitting.

Number 3 is 9mm frame, receiver and barrel are marked "943m. Trigger, lock plate and lock bolt are marked "43". Toggle and extractor are "43". Receiver is stamped "1918".Mag does not match. Bore is bright with find sand pitting.

scsandlapper · 04-04-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

J.R.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

You can "discuss" all the guns you want here, and your plans to sell them if you wish... but WHEN you decide to sell any of them, you must post them in the FOR SALE forum, and they must have a fixed price in your posting. No auctions are permitted. Please read the sticky note at the top of that forum for more details on the rules. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

-John

Got it John. Thanks to all of yu for the welcome.. I have been on the CMP forums for a number of years and your rules seem to be close. If I ever step out of line let me know.

Edward Tinker · 04-04-2012, 03:23 PM

JR, #1 and #2 both appear to be reblued items, the first one especially, the 2nd one has east german grips on it.

They could just be some grips put onto it.

the blank toggle on #1 is not usual, and I don't see any proof marks.

On #2, you never see them with 'germany' stamped as the maker, so that is aftermarket.

Magazine on #1 is aftermarket, #2 is a WW2 FXO

I will look closer, but thats my first impression....

scsandlapper · 04-04-2012, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

JR, #1 and #2 both appear to be reblued items, the first one especially, the 2nd one has east german grips on it.

They could just be some grips put onto it.

the blank toggle on #1 is not usual, and I don't see any proof marks.

On #2, you never see them with 'germany' stamped as the maker, so that is aftermarket.

Magazine on #1 is aftermarket, #2 is a WW2 FXO

I will look closer, but thats my first impression....

OK Ed, ed-ucate me. I mean that in the nicest way !

#1 has been reblued at some point, I think.

# 2, I don't think so. I am sitting here in this nice 85 degree Carolina sun shine and I just can't believe it's been blued. Also, what do you mean using the term "aftermarket". Were there folks who took Luger parts/pieces and built Lugers and sold them as legit with their stamp "Germany"?
What year would the East Germans used the Luger and put new plastic grips on them. Also, what about the .30 cal. chamber. Make it worth more or less ?

God, I hope I can remember all this, I have to sell these pistols

If I need more and better pics I can do that, just tell me what you need.
Please, anyone, Ed and all. Give me an honest opinion on the value.

mrerick · 04-04-2012, 10:55 PM

Hi John,

First, welcome to the forum. It's great that you're willing to help your friend.

Lugers have so many variations that it can take some time to develop the knowledge needed to identify collectable pistols that are "correct". There have been several manufacturers over the years, each of which created many variations.

To be considered "collectable", a Luger must be as close to original factory state as possible. The markings (commercial and military proof marks), matching serial numbers, high percentage of original finish and a host of other things contribute to identifying Lugers as original and matching and help determine rarity and price. Matching magazines are rare, and add 20% to the value or more.

Any modification to a Luger (re-finishing; replacement of numbered parts) eliminates collector interest in most Lugers. Some are so rare that collectors may still want to acquire one, but most refinished, altered or mis-matched Lugers are considered "shooters". They are generally valued between $400 and $1000 if, in fact, they are in good shooting condition.

Collectable Lugers start at around $1000.

It's likely that posting all of your friend's pistols in one thread will end up bogging it down as members have to page through all of the photos and comments. It might be best to open one thread for each pistol that you want help identifying and evaluating.

Take your pictures using a tripod, the closeup setting of your digital camera, the self timer (to avoid camera shake) and in indirect (shaded) light. Don't use the flash. It washes out the finish and makes it difficult to judge it's condition.

Luger #1 is shooter grade; Probably worth $500 if in good shooting condition.

Luger #2 is shooter grade. None of the manufacturers marked the toggle "GERMANY". It also has East German plastic grips. Is the pistol in 9mm Luger or .30 Luger caliber? A shooter would be worth $650 with the WW-II magazine (correct for 1941-1942 Mauser Lugers).

#3 also looks reblued to me. There should be lightening "halos" around the serial number stamped on the barrel, and the pistol should be rust blued (not salt blued). The strawing looks redone too. I'm not sure, and would like to see pictures of the top / interior of the frame, and close-ups of the serial number area on the barrel; the front of the barrel; hand straps. You would have to disassemble further to check numbering on the breech block; firing pin and grips. Be very careful if you remove grips. Lift the left one very slightly before sliding it away from the safety lever. Value with WW-I Magazine is $800; With after market magazine is $725.

Marc

Curly1 · 04-05-2012, 12:46 AM

Working shooters are going from 700-900.

The last one I saw for $400 was a few years ago and it came home with me.

wlyon · 04-05-2012, 01:37 AM

JR
As i'm sure you know it is difficult to value a firearm from a few pictures. One needs to see inside,check finish, numbers etc. However I will give you my best shot based on the few pictures. The more pictures you can send us the better info you will receive. Also tear the gun apart and talk to us about what you see for finish,numbers wear etc. Anyway----#1 reblue wrong grips,wrong mag. Is there writing at the bottom of the safety lever well. Looks sort of like it from pics. $600 #2 Vopo grips. probably a 20 commercial, in 30 cal. Have not seen Germany in this location but in the era of this gun anything is possible. 30 cal are generally ,less desirable ( many exceptions to this) Mag is later type. From pics I don't think reblued.Value $900. #3 To me ,again from the pics , appears to be a reblue. What color are the inside rails in the receiver? If not reblued $1200 or so, if reblued $ 800. A lot of if's but with more info and pictures you should get some good info. Some of the top luger experts are here ( not me ) Bill

scsandlapper · 04-05-2012, 08:06 AM

Tons of good info. Sorry about the pics. I like to shoot outside on bright but cloudy days but rushed this job in all the excitement of the find. Believe it or not I taught photography/dark room both B&W and color in night classes in a local high school many, many years ago. We had what was called "film" cameras back then.

I guess the digital has made me lazy.

I will re-shoot the pics and post better ones shortly. Thanks so much for the info. I will also work on one at a time from now on. Thanks.

lugersrkewl · 04-05-2012, 07:42 PM

glad to have you here

lugerholsterrepair · 04-05-2012, 08:45 PM

I agree with Bill on #3..deffinately a re blue. The reciever rails and safet should not be blue..in fact the safety bar looks parkerized.

Did this fine Gentleman have any accoutremon? Holsters..tools stocks etc?

Yes..welcome to the Forum!

scsandlapper · 04-05-2012, 09:02 PM

Sorry, nothing but the pistols.

steven c · 04-06-2012, 10:35 PM

id like to see the walthers pp and ppk's

whcoyote · 04-07-2012, 12:18 AM

Pistol No. 1 has had the safety altered. The frame came from a pistol that had an up-position safety originally. That almost certainly means it was originally rust-blued. Notice the milled-out portion in the lower safety position and the remains of "Gesichert" (German for "Safe) still left in this position.

As information, any Luger made by DWM or Erfurt and having a chamber date of 1918 or earlier, or DWM with no date, was originally rust blued. A characteristic of the rust bluing process is that the inside of the frame and the bottoms of the receiver will be in-the-white (not blued) if the finish is original. DWM and Erfurt Lugers are so-marked on the top of the front toggle link.

04-04-2012, 02:14 PM	#5
scsandlapper User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK Here is Luger #1. He called it a "lunch box" Luger. 9 mm. The frame and trigger are marked "802". The barrel and receiver are marked "81". Trigger plate is marked "69". If I am misnaming and parts please correct me. Bore is nice with what I call "fine sand pitting" but bright. I hope you guys can help. Number 2 is a Commercial model, I think. .30 cal. Has "Germany"on the toggle top and "38" on the back end. Frame is marked "6038k", locking plate and trigger are marked "38", barrel is marked "6038k". Mag is not the right number. ( I will get ALL the Luger mags brought over and see if any match up.) Bore is bright with fine sand like pitting. Number 3 is 9mm frame, receiver and barrel are marked "943m. Trigger, lock plate and lock bolt are marked "43". Toggle and extractor are "43". Receiver is stamped "1918".Mag does not match. Bore is bright with find sand pitting. __________________ J.R.

04-04-2012, 03:23 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	JR, #1 and #2 both appear to be reblued items, the first one especially, the 2nd one has east german grips on it. They could just be some grips put onto it. the blank toggle on #1 is not usual, and I don't see any proof marks. On #2, you never see them with 'germany' stamped as the maker, so that is aftermarket. Magazine on #1 is aftermarket, #2 is a WW2 FXO I will look closer, but thats my first impression.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-04-2012, 10:55 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi John, First, welcome to the forum. It's great that you're willing to help your friend. Lugers have so many variations that it can take some time to develop the knowledge needed to identify collectable pistols that are "correct". There have been several manufacturers over the years, each of which created many variations. To be considered "collectable", a Luger must be as close to original factory state as possible. The markings (commercial and military proof marks), matching serial numbers, high percentage of original finish and a host of other things contribute to identifying Lugers as original and matching and help determine rarity and price. Matching magazines are rare, and add 20% to the value or more. Any modification to a Luger (re-finishing; replacement of numbered parts) eliminates collector interest in most Lugers. Some are so rare that collectors may still want to acquire one, but most refinished, altered or mis-matched Lugers are considered "shooters". They are generally valued between $400 and $1000 if, in fact, they are in good shooting condition. Collectable Lugers start at around $1000. It's likely that posting all of your friend's pistols in one thread will end up bogging it down as members have to page through all of the photos and comments. It might be best to open one thread for each pistol that you want help identifying and evaluating. Take your pictures using a tripod, the closeup setting of your digital camera, the self timer (to avoid camera shake) and in indirect (shaded) light. Don't use the flash. It washes out the finish and makes it difficult to judge it's condition. Luger #1 is shooter grade; Probably worth $500 if in good shooting condition. Luger #2 is shooter grade. None of the manufacturers marked the toggle "GERMANY". It also has East German plastic grips. Is the pistol in 9mm Luger or .30 Luger caliber? A shooter would be worth $650 with the WW-II magazine (correct for 1941-1942 Mauser Lugers). #3 also looks reblued to me. There should be lightening "halos" around the serial number stamped on the barrel, and the pistol should be rust blued (not salt blued). The strawing looks redone too. I'm not sure, and would like to see pictures of the top / interior of the frame, and close-ups of the serial number area on the barrel; the front of the barrel; hand straps. You would have to disassemble further to check numbering on the breech block; firing pin and grips. Be very careful if you remove grips. Lift the left one very slightly before sliding it away from the safety lever. Value with WW-I Magazine is $800; With after market magazine is $725. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-05-2012, 12:46 AM	#10
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,242 Thanks: 117 Thanked 714 Times in 371 Posts	Working shooters are going from 700-900. The last one I saw for $400 was a few years ago and it came home with me. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

04-05-2012, 01:37 AM	#11
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	JR As i'm sure you know it is difficult to value a firearm from a few pictures. One needs to see inside,check finish, numbers etc. However I will give you my best shot based on the few pictures. The more pictures you can send us the better info you will receive. Also tear the gun apart and talk to us about what you see for finish,numbers wear etc. Anyway----#1 reblue wrong grips,wrong mag. Is there writing at the bottom of the safety lever well. Looks sort of like it from pics. $600 #2 Vopo grips. probably a 20 commercial, in 30 cal. Have not seen Germany in this location but in the era of this gun anything is possible. 30 cal are generally ,less desirable ( many exceptions to this) Mag is later type. From pics I don't think reblued.Value $900. #3 To me ,again from the pics , appears to be a reblue. What color are the inside rails in the receiver? If not reblued $1200 or so, if reblued $ 800. A lot of if's but with more info and pictures you should get some good info. Some of the top luger experts are here ( not me ) Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

04-04-2012, 01:24 PM	#1
scsandlapper User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New "old" man with lots of questions. Hey guys. My first post here. A little background before my questions. I have been picked by an old, as in elderly, friend of many years. We met when I worked as a gun smith/shooting instructor at a local indoor range here in Mt. Pleasant, SC. We became fast friends. He has decided to thin out his huge collection of arms and has picked me to do the selling. I am not getting any funds from this so far and don't know it I will, but he needs the bucks and his sons don't really care about "guns". Part of the collection is 15 Luger's, maybe be more hidden. He got most all of these when he was a student at a local vocational school in Charleston SC after WWII. Fro the most part these came off ships bringing home U.S.G.I.'s after the war. If they were caught with any weapons without the proper papers they were"relieved" of them. All weapons were thrown in a crate to be dumped at sea, or some other unpleasant end. He and some friends were told by the dock workers they could buy them for next to nothing. Which he and others did and the dock workers got beer money. I am going to try my first time here to post pics and ask questions. BTW, if this is breaking any rules doing this, knowing I am planning to sell these and the others, please let me know and I delete everything and go else where. Rules is rules . I don't know how many pics I can add at one time so I'll post the 3 I have in another post here. This is a very SMALL area of the whole collection showing the Lugers less the three I brought with me to sell. There are two to the right out of the pic with the longer barrels and tangent rear sights. __________________ J.R.

04-04-2012, 01:41 PM	#2
ripcord810 User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 139 Thanks: 146 Thanked 23 Times in 16 Posts	Let me know what models you have.. [email protected]

04-04-2012, 01:50 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Welcome aboard, Karl!! No problem with you posting here to try and move the Lugers. You may even be able to sell some of the other guns, as well. The key here is that you will need to do some work in order to get your friend top dollar for his guns. This includes describing and photographing each pistol individually, including photos of ALL markings and in many cases (as in Lugers) disassembling them to see if all internals match. Careful, meticulous presentation will get you the best price estimates from the board, which will allow you to ask fair prices for each gun. Although it is not common here, avoid personal messages and contacts wanting to buy from you now privately or in bulk. This will never be the best deal for your friend.

04-04-2012, 02:03 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	J.R. Welcome to the Lugerforum. You can "discuss" all the guns you want here, and your plans to sell them if you wish... but WHEN you decide to sell any of them, you must post them in the FOR SALE forum, and they must have a fixed price in your posting. No auctions are permitted. Please read the sticky note at the top of that forum for more details on the rules. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask. -John

04-05-2012, 08:06 AM	#12
scsandlapper User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tons of good info. Sorry about the pics. I like to shoot outside on bright but cloudy days but rushed this job in all the excitement of the find. Believe it or not I taught photography/dark room both B&W and color in night classes in a local high school many, many years ago. We had what was called "film" cameras back then. I guess the digital has made me lazy. I will re-shoot the pics and post better ones shortly. Thanks so much for the info. I will also work on one at a time from now on. Thanks. __________________ J.R.

04-05-2012, 07:42 PM	#13
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	glad to have you here Last edited by lugersrkewl; 04-06-2012 at 01:30 AM. Reason: clarification

04-05-2012, 08:45 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I agree with Bill on #3..deffinately a re blue. The reciever rails and safet should not be blue..in fact the safety bar looks parkerized. Did this fine Gentleman have any accoutremon? Holsters..tools stocks etc? Yes..welcome to the Forum! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-05-2012, 09:02 PM	#15
scsandlapper User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry, nothing but the pistols. __________________ J.R.

04-06-2012, 10:35 PM	#16
steven c User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: texas Posts: 60 Thanks: 15 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	id like to see the walthers pp and ppk's

04-07-2012, 12:18 AM	#17
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Pistol No. 1 has had the safety altered. The frame came from a pistol that had an up-position safety originally. That almost certainly means it was originally rust-blued. Notice the milled-out portion in the lower safety position and the remains of "Gesichert" (German for "Safe) still left in this position. As information, any Luger made by DWM or Erfurt and having a chamber date of 1918 or earlier, or DWM with no date, was originally rust blued. A characteristic of the rust bluing process is that the inside of the frame and the bottoms of the receiver will be in-the-white (not blued) if the finish is original. DWM and Erfurt Lugers are so-marked on the top of the front toggle link.