Black Widow grips

[sheepdog]

Man I've been lurking around here for years. I own one Luger, my Dad's, a numbers matching except for the two magazines 1916 DWM. Also came with a 1937 Hans Romer holster, tool, and as stated two WWII magazines. I have three sets of grips. One set has the two numbers stamped on the back that match up with the last two numbers of the serial number of the pistol. They are pretty worn out with a small crack on top though when put on the pistol, the crack is not very obvious. They aren't in very good shape. The second which are usually on the pistol now are a decent set of walnut repos I found about 20 years ago. The question I have is about the third set of grips I have. They are the "black widow" plastic grips. I can remember growing up in the 60s these were always the ones my Dad had on the Luger. How can one tell if these "black widow" grips are the real thing. No waffenmarks but they are obviously very old and well made.




Here it is with the repo grips. Not as spectacular as some but it's mine and it's the one firearm I own, and I own some nice ones, that I'd run into a burning house to save.

Thanks for any help guys

[mrerick]

Hi Mike, and welcome to the forum.

Post some good sharp detailed photos of both the front and back sides of your grips.

If you're interested, contact Hugh Clark about your original grips. I'm pretty sure he does restoration work and might be able to bring them back to something quite nice.

Marc

[DavidJayUden]

I would recommend 4 or 5 close up photos of the grips and we'll let the experts take it from there.
dju

[alanint]

Hi and welcome to posting on the site!

You need to photograph both grips, especially the back side in order to determine if they are originals or a repro set. If original, they are worth $200+ depending on condition and how badly someone wants them. There is the "hot pin" test, which can be performed in a discreet place and will tell you if they are bakelite, (some smoke and a funny smell) or plastic, (bubbling, melting and a clear burnt plastic smell)

[sheepdog]

Best I could get, it's a Kodak camera so I know why their having bankruptcy troubles









Here's a picture of my Dad taken in June 1944 just to let you know that though I was born here in 1954, German things are in my blood. No that wasn't his Luger, they frowned upon Germans carrying arms in American POW camps. He bought it from someone in the late 50s. Luger, holster with tool and two magazines, 4 boxes of 1944 German 9mm ammo and an M40 German helmet for the princely sum of $100. He left me a nice 1961 Leica M3 camera too.

[alanint]

The grips look real to me.

[Frank]

They look good to me too.

Any more info on your Dad?

[mrerick]

They look good to me too, and in superb condition.

Alone, the grips are worth 2 to 3 times what he paid for the entire rig.

Did your father stay in the USA and settle here after the war? I have heard several stories of this happening.

One of my own relatives (from Bavaria) moved to the USA in the 1920s, and had a business in metalworking in Brooklyn up until the middle of WW-II. There was so much negative prejudice about people with German background and accents that the authorities in NYC harassed him and eventually put him out of business by 1945. He moved upstate NY and bought a farm...

If your father stayed in the US after the war, he must have dealt with some of this. Yet (from other relatives that were in Munich during and after WW-II) I know that living conditions were impossible in Germany. My cousin survived on Care packages sent by a church in Michigan to her family in Munich.

Marc

[sheepdog]

You asked for it, this may get long but my father was one of the most talented people I ever met so here goes. My father was drafted in the spring of 1944 by the Wehrmacht. He told me that he was lucky because he went to France while everyone else headed East. He was captured near Metz in October of 1944 by the U.S. Third Army. He was sent to a P.O.W. camp near Epernay, France were he stayed until his release in December of 1945. In the camp the Americans found out he was quite a good artist so he traded portraits for cigarettes, etc. He painted movie stars faces on the walls of the an NCO club near the camp, even did some nose art on some planes. He liked to tell about how well he was treated by the Americans. Struck up a friendship with one American Sergeant named Guardsman who later helped sponsor him to get to America



That's my dad on the left with a portrait of Sgt. Guardsman on the easel, picture taken in the P.O.W. camp. Don't know who the other fellow is. That's also some of my dad's work on the wall. After his release he went into the black market back in Germany, he always told me he could make liquor out of anything. He met my mother, also from Germany who lost her husband on the Eastern Front during the war. Her parents were thrown out of Germany in 1937, basically told you have a week to leave, they were the lucky ones, anyway they wound up in New York City. In 1952 they immigrated (legally) and wound up in Memphis, Tennessee were my Grandfather had taken a job at a matress factory. They were married shortly there after and in November of 1954 they had me. He became a very successful commercial artist doing work for a new company called Holiday Inns. Trust me almost everyone has seen some art work my dad did. His best stuff was done for the F.B.I because before Photoshop you doctored up a picture with an airbrush. If you've seen pictures of the late Dr. Martin Luther King marching in a crowd before he was killed in Memphis my dad had doctored up the pictures taking the F.B.I plants out of them before they were released.

If I had 1/4 of his talent I would be retired with quite a nice collection of Lugers now.

I'll leave you with two more pictures, one is P.O.W. art of his mother, my grandmother and my favorite of evey piece of artwork I inherited and the second one is his father, my grandfather who was the Constable of Hannover around the time of WWI. those are Schutzenfest medals he's wearing. Dad said he knew Von Hindenburg, can't say he didn't.





He did old European script writing in the memorial books for some of the Jewish Temples here in Memphis and had to tell the head Rabbis he was a German soldier, are they sure they wanted him to do it because some of the names he had to write were followed by killed at Belsen, killed at Auschwitz. They told him they knew he was one of the good Germans so that's why they hired him. One of my favorite stories.

He died in 1992, two days later I got a call from an 82 year old Sgt. Guardsman telling me my father was one of the most remarkable people he had ever met. Talked to him for almost two hours. He passed away two months later.

I caught most of the nazi resentment at school, I'm sure he did too but two of his best frinds in Memphis were American servicemen during the war so I'm sure they covered for him when needed.

I could write for another hour but I'll cut it off here.

[tx_oil]

An amazing story! Thank you for sharing this with the forum. The reason I personally collect firearms is the history of the individual piece, both of itself and the era it was from. Your father's story is remarkable and is an affirmation of this hobby of ours!

[pitsword]

Thank you for your posts and welcome aboard. My wifes father was a Pioneer NCO. He joined in 1937 and was lost on the eastern front in late 1944. He saw my wife once, just after she was born, while on recovery leave. Her mother remarried, after the war, to a Africa Corps infantry man. The step father was a P O W from '43 thru the end of the war. Best to you.

[John Sabato]

I concur that the grips are genuine.

[sheepdog]

I'll give y'all another question. I haven't fired this Luger since the late 70s though I clean and oil it regularly. It's the matching numbers thing. About a month ago I was plugging away at the range with a real sweet S&W Model 66 no dash when a guy next to me pulls a Luger out. It was one of those that had two years marked on it, 1916, like mine and 1920. Brother was this one nice, nicer than mine (commercial?) and after talking to him for a while he said, "care to shoot it?" I said not only yes but he** yes, you don't turn down shooting a Luger. Did quite respectable, let him shoot my 1972 MPD Model 66 and asked him "You shoot this, all numbers match aren't you worried?" His answer was, "Lugers are meant to be shot."

So would you shoot an all numbers matching 1916 DWM??

[alanint]

A completely personal choice. The pistol you fired was a military model accepted by the Weimar Republic as one of the pistols allowed by the Versailles Treaty. The "1920" is considered a Weimar property mark, rather than a date. All matching guns are getting more and more scarse. As more people fire their all matching guns and break parts, the original matching guns will continue to rise in value. If you must shoot your pistol, at least consider a replacement firing pin and extractor at the minimum, to preserve these original parts. Many folks purchase an entire toggle train, which they drop into their gun so that they can shoot it without risking the collectability of their pistol.

[DavidJayUden]

Me? I'd go buy a second Luger, a shooter. You don't have to feed them you know, and they will, at least, hold their value. How much fun have you had looking at you bank statement lately?
dju

[mrerick]

Like David, I'd recommend that you purchase a second "Shooter" grade Luger. You'll find them listed here occasionally. You'd lose the value of a "shooter" and the history of an all matching pistol if you broke the one you inherited. It's just not worth the risk to me.

They are a lot of fun to shoot. Check periodically with Tom Heller and watch the for sale section here.

BTW, your relative's life experience is one of the best reasons for separating your perception of a country's government from it's individual people.

Marc

[LugerMan.com]

Originally Posted by sheepdog

... His answer was, "Lugers are meant to be shot...

Amen to that ....

That's what I do and will continue to do so...

Collectible or not.

Meany will disagree.

But then again I drive a GTO as a daily commuter,
some( most) just have them sitting in the garage.

If you have the money by a shooter and shoot it as much as you can ;0)

[lugerholsterrepair]

I own one Luger, my Dad's, a numbers matching except for the two magazines 1916 DWM.

Don't listen to ANYONE who tells you to shoot this Luger. Lugers break and to destroy a pistol your Father left to you would be criminal.

Find a cheap beater shooter and blaze away but think long and hard before you take this pistol to the range.

Great story and photo's by the way! Fascinating.

[Edward Tinker]

Mike, I collect stories like this, have two paperback books published so far, sending off vol III next week or so, but would love to include this in vol IV

I give full credit to the author / owner etc.

shoot me an email if interested / [email protected]

would need high rez pictures and story above

[sheepdog]

Pretty much what I thought, I do have an extra firing pin, but I'll just continue to let it be the safe queen.

One more picture I just remembered was on the computer.



He's standing in the middle and looks like he hadn't heard he was going to France yet.

Thanks for making me feel at home folks, even though I've been a member since 2009 I might start posting some. You have a great Forum with some beautiful pictures and nice people.

This place is going to cost me a bunch sooner or later.