Luger ammo

Rod · 03-09-2001, 08:39 PM

I have seen a lot of comments about hurting your Luger by shooting it. I am concerned - the gun was suposed to be designed to take 1400 ft/lbs at 125 grains (9m/m). Is there a thought that Luger or DWM released something that wouldn't take that charge? I understand that 3 super (proof) rounds were used for qualification of each gun. My personnel experience shows no wear on the contact surfaces or any wear at the pivot joints. Did Mr. Luger miss something during the design development or what? Does anyone have an experience with a Luger failing using the the above load?

Kyrie · 03-09-2001, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand the question. To reach 1400 ft/lb of muzzle energy with a 124 grain bullet we would have to reach about 2300 fps muzzle velocity. The 9 mm Luger cartridge, with a 123 - 125 grain bullet, typically has a muzzle velocity of 1100 - 1200 fps, and produces between about 350 - 400 ft/lb of muzzle energy. Can you help me understand your question?

Best regards,

Kyrie

Marvin · 03-09-2001, 09:11 PM

Rod,

Kyrie is the expert on the velocity and energy of the 9mm cartridge, but I will try to explain the controversy on a Luger "Breaking" from firing the weapon.

The pistol is well designed and tested to take the German load of the Pre-WWI thru the WWII era and be reliable. I feel that the problem we have today is the age of the pistol, some ammo on the market now that is loaded to maybe a higher pressure or designed for sub machine guns. This may be a potential problem, but I feel it is slight.

The next problem, and the one I think about, is how has the pistol been treated over the years before it came to our hands. Has someone in the past used handloads that were overloaded and stressed the parts, has someone mistreated the parts in disassembly, have they been abused in someway that may damage a part and it not be visible? These are questions we can't answer unless each part is tested.

Now I guess to really answer your question. I do shoot some of my pistols on occasion. Some I have not fired yet, but may one day. If I invest $1700 in a pistol and I fire it and by SOME chance, the firing pin breaks, and I replace it with another, I now have a mis-matched pistol and I just lost several hundred dollars in value even having the original broken firing pin. I honestly feel this is reason for the statements about not firing a very collectable Luger except on rare occasions. It is not the ability of the pistol, but just the unknowns from years of use, abuse, etc. Maybe someone else will chime in on this subject, it is a very good question and I appreciate you asking this.

Marvin

Rod · 03-09-2001, 09:42 PM

Sorry - you are correct, I ment to say that I understood the design was for a 9 m/m 124 grain bullet at 1400 feet per second. With standard rounds, I have experienced no wear - which is what I would expect from the design. I am just concerned about the comments that seem to come up and would be interested in hearing about any failures using the design critera.

Thanks and best regards,

Rod

Kyrie · 03-09-2001, 09:51 PM

Hi Marvin,

I think that's an excellent answer!

We need to remember that the youngest Luger is still more than fifty year old - and some are 100 years old! That's time for a lot of use, and abuse.

Over time even firearms made from the finest of materials (which Lugers, unfortunately, are not - at least my today's standards) develop weaknesses in their parts. Those parts that are the most highly stressed (either in terms of stress magnitude or repetitive stress) develop flaws that are not normally visible to the naked eye. These flaws start out as tiny voids, checks, or separations along the grain boundaries of the steel. Eventually these flaws progress to cracks, and once that happens parts breakage is imminent.

Over-pressure ammunition can certainly contribute to how fast these problems develop - as can weak springs, obstructed or constricted chambers or bores, or ammunition that is simply improper. But the bottom line here is the problem is not a poor design; it's advanced age.

Marvin is also right on target about the concerns that prevent people from firing Lugers with collector value. To have collector value, a Luger must be all original. Break a part, and it's not all original any more and no longer has any collector value. To illustrate this let me share a story.

Some years ago I was at a gun show chatting with a Luger collector at his table. Another fellow came up and he and the collector began negotiating on a stone mint 1916 DWM Artillery. The prospective buyer was examining the pistol when he unintentionally dry fired it. There was a "Snap!", "Ting!", as the firing pin broke and the tip of the firing pin departed for parts unknown. In that fraction of a second a $1400 collector Artillery became a $700 shooter Luger. All of us just froze in place when this happened. We all knew exactly what had occurred, and what it meant. The prospective buyer paid the collector $700 in cash, and walked away (without the Luger!). Everyone was just heartbroken, but it was Humpty Dumpty. The fellow who broke the firing pin was crushed, and mortified.

That's the risk in firing a Luger with collector value. It can stop being a collector Luger every time the trigger is pressed :-(

Best regards,

Kyrie

P. S. for reference, I'm going to attach a photo of a cracked P.38 slide. This crack probably started out years ago, and finally reached the surface after hundreds (if not thousands) of rounds after it started as a small check.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/P38CS.jpg

Rod · 03-09-2001, 09:58 PM

Thanks Marvin for the response , you have many very good points. I personaly believe the gun was well designed during the development stage and will take a lot of abuse - I can't fault anyone for wanting to protect his investment.

I think the original design is near perfection and will handle anything thrown at it - most commercial loads are to low for the action, but if the design limits were exceeded with hand loads you would have known before you bought the gun. Maybe I'm wrong but in my experience if its going to break it will when you over stress it and not later.

Kyrie · 03-09-2001, 10:05 PM

Hi Rod!

Thank you, I understand better

Alas, I'm afraid you have been the recipient of bad information. The only Luger cartridge that reached anything like 1400 fps was the 93 grain Luger carbine cartridge - and that velocity was out of an 11.75 inch barrel! Standard Luger fodder was a 123.4 grain bullet, at about 1150 fps (though one sees recorded velocities that range from a low of 1040 fps all the way up to 1250 fps). The pressures standards for the 9 mm Luger cartridge really haven't changed much in the last 100 years.

This is a funny subject, with a surprising amount of misinformation bandied about. I suspect this is due to the gun rag writers; most of who seem unable to even rent a clue [smile]. One even hears that US produced 9 mm Luger is loaded "weakly". In point of fact, US (read "SAAMI") 9 mm Luger pressure standards were taken from European pressure standards. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute) call for a MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) of 35,000 psi for the 9 mm Luger. Interestingly enough, that's exactly the same MAP as for the .357 Magnum cartridge

Anyway, I hope this helps some!

Best regards,

Kyrie

Rod · 03-09-2001, 10:15 PM

Thats a very good point - I would rather have the firing pin break at the gun show then that same night at home. Compare the Lugers firing pin design to a Colt Python or others and I think you would agree the the Luger is the better design. I think that the guns design was far superior to quite a few of the offerings today. - they did there their homework as is said in the business.

Rod · 03-09-2001, 10:23 PM

Thanks - that is great info.

Regards,

Rod

Mark · 03-09-2001, 10:36 PM

Gruss Gott all!

I've been reading through the info.

presented here and I have a couple of

questions I'd like to toss in if that's

alright.I've read that one of the problems with the Luger is that it takes a "hot" rd. to cycle the action and that alot of the modern ammo doesn't produce sufficient

pressure to do the job.Is this purely a

case of misinformation by the authors or

do acceptable "standard pressure" loads

(as opposed to +P and +P+) vary to such

a degree in a general sense that one can't

rely at all on the designation that ammo

is "standard" pressure?

My stainless pistols seem to like 115gr

PMP ( South African ).Does anyone have

the data on where this ammo fits into the

grand scheme of things in this regard?

Kryrie,you mentioned part of the problem I'm seeing with one of these guns might be at least partially due to the load.Are

you familiar with this particular cartridge and its performance?Could this be a contributing factor to the errosion

on the frame that I've seen?

Sorry for running on,but I "needs to know" more than I do at this point about

almost everything!Thanks!

Tschuss! Mark

Rick K · 03-09-2001, 10:49 PM

How do you avoid dry firing? I've heard it's dangerous and should be avoided. When you take a gun apart and the firing pin becomes cocked, is there a way to release it without dry firing it? Am I doing something fundamentally wrong if I take a Luger apart, and the firing pin becomes cocked? Honest question from a "newby".

Ted · 03-09-2001, 11:00 PM

1. Make sure the gun is empty

2. Point it in a safe direction

3. Close the toggle until it is at the point where it is beginning to compress the firing pin spring (3/4 closed)

4. Grip the toggle ears in your cocking hand with the weapon in your firing hand

5. Pull the trigger and assist and ease the toggle closed

6. Firing pin spring is relaxed and firing pin has not been damaged. Ted

Ted · 03-09-2001, 11:06 PM

Remember Lugers that are 80 years old and have the original spring still in them MAY have had thousands of rounds through them and the spring tends to weaken over time. With a weak recoil spring and lots of loading/pressure cycels under their belt, the last thing you want to is stoke them with a really hot round just because you read they were designed for a hot round. The original spring did wonders fro absorbing the recoil energy. With the spring in a weakened state that ability is compromised and the frame/and other stops much take it all. NOT GOOD! Ted

Rick K · 03-09-2001, 11:10 PM

Thanks Ted! You have taught me what I needed to know once again!

Rick K · 03-09-2001, 11:22 PM

What is meant by "a really hot round"? Does that mean the bullet is heavier and exerts more pressure because it is harder to move, or does that mean there is a stronger charge in the cartridge? God, I hope these questions are not stupid!

03-09-2001, 11:24 PM

Very interesting information on dry firing. I have some of the little plastic bullets (these have springs inside of them), which are specifically designed for dry firing. Has anyone had experience with these?

Where the primer would be is a metal plate attached to the internal spring, which should absorb the firing pin shock. I haven't figured out how to get the shell out without cocking the gun again, but might be able to use Ted's procedure!

Mark · 03-09-2001, 11:41 PM

Gruss Gott,Ted!

Point definitely understood and well taken to

heart with respect to the older generation of this

beautiful work of art.I have a couple of "new"

manufacture which shouldn't ( the operative word is

"shouldn't") be suffering from spring fatigue at such a young age.I've never fired the 1917 Erfurt.

I've only put a few rds. through the '36 Mauser.I'm

terrified of messing them up,even if they aren't

true collector pieces.To me they are.That's why I

bought the new stainless pistols.So I could get some

of the fit and feel of the "real" thing without

risking injury to said same.But just because my

surogate babies aren't the original genuine article

doesn't mean I don't still dote on them a bit.I

can't help it.They are related!

Thanks for reminding me that the others are more

advanced in years and suffer from some of the same types of frailties that we all begin to see as time

progresses!I can't swear that the temptation to

shoot the originals will be forever banished from

my thoughts and desires,but your reminders do give

me pause to attempt reasoned response when they surface.Thanks!

Tschuss! Mark

Mark · 03-10-2001, 12:25 AM

Gruss Gott!

I'll be go to Hell,it works!This is a question I've grappled with ever since the babies were so unfortunate as to come into my guardianship!The

manuals all say DO NOT DRY FIRE,but they also fail

to mention how this is to be accomplished without

leaving the firing pin spring under constant and

debilitating pressure.Lacking the technical know=

ledge of the pistol,I have always taken care of the

delima by doing the forbidden act of releasing the

striker.Fortunately I haven't experienced any ill

effect(yet!!),but now that I know there is an alternative,I'll damned well use it!Thanks!!

Tschuss! Mark

P.S. Please feel free to keep amazing me with the

variety of interelated (Luger-related) topics

which do seem to abound here!!!!

Kyrie · 03-10-2001, 12:52 AM

Hi Mark,

Good questions

That Lugers need "hot" ammunition to work is misinformation. A Luger in sound mechanical condition will function just fine with standard (read "non +P") ammunition. OTOH, a Luger with mechanical problems (warped frame, binding toggle assembly, and so on) will not function with standard ammunition, but will with over pressure ammunition. What is happening here is the "too hot" ammunition is forcing the Luger past its mechanical problems. But by forcing the mechanism to work when it shouldn't, it's making existing problems worse - and eventually the pistol won't function no matter how "hot" the ammunition is. The bottom line to this is a Luger that will not function with standard ammunition has a mechanical problem not related to ammunition.

Regarding the South African PMP ammunition I have fired a lot of it, but don't know to what standard it is manufactured. I can say it's unlikely it was manufactured to SAAMI specification, as it won't even chamber in a SAAMI minimum 9 mm Parabellum chamber. It is possible this ammunition is a contributing cause to the excessive wear you have noticed on your Stainless Luger - I do not fire this ammunition in my Lugers, or my C96's. OTOH, the stainless Lugers have been known to have some metallurgical problems - some of them quite bizarre. I know of one case where one of these Lugers could not be stopped from rusting, even though it was stored at 70 degrees and a humidity that never exceeded 50%. That's pretty wild. So whatever the root cause(s) of the problem you see developing may be, the material the pistol is made from may be a contributing cause - or it may not. I frankly don't understand a lot of things I've seen and have had reported about these Lugers.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Kyrie

Rick K · 03-10-2001, 12:54 AM

Well Mark, that's how I feel exactly! Aren't we glad that I framed the question and presented it to this wonderful compendium of Luger knowledge? Ted is so neat because he comes to our rescue without condescension or hesitation. I love this forum and the guys participating, because if you ask honest questions, any number of knowledgeable guys will leap forward to supply answers based upon years and years of experience and enthusiasm!

03-09-2001, 08:39 PM	#1
Rod User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger ammo I have seen a lot of comments about hurting your Luger by shooting it. I am concerned - the gun was suposed to be designed to take 1400 ft/lbs at 125 grains (9m/m). Is there a thought that Luger or DWM released something that wouldn't take that charge? I understand that 3 super (proof) rounds were used for qualification of each gun. My personnel experience shows no wear on the contact surfaces or any wear at the pivot joints. Did Mr. Luger miss something during the design development or what? Does anyone have an experience with a Luger failing using the the above load?

03-09-2001, 09:01 PM	#2
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Luger ammo I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand the question. To reach 1400 ft/lb of muzzle energy with a 124 grain bullet we would have to reach about 2300 fps muzzle velocity. The 9 mm Luger cartridge, with a 123 - 125 grain bullet, typically has a muzzle velocity of 1100 - 1200 fps, and produces between about 350 - 400 ft/lb of muzzle energy. Can you help me understand your question? Best regards, Kyrie

03-09-2001, 09:11 PM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Rod, Kyrie is the expert on the velocity and energy of the 9mm cartridge, but I will try to explain the controversy on a Luger "Breaking" from firing the weapon. The pistol is well designed and tested to take the German load of the Pre-WWI thru the WWII era and be reliable. I feel that the problem we have today is the age of the pistol, some ammo on the market now that is loaded to maybe a higher pressure or designed for sub machine guns. This may be a potential problem, but I feel it is slight. The next problem, and the one I think about, is how has the pistol been treated over the years before it came to our hands. Has someone in the past used handloads that were overloaded and stressed the parts, has someone mistreated the parts in disassembly, have they been abused in someway that may damage a part and it not be visible? These are questions we can't answer unless each part is tested. Now I guess to really answer your question. I do shoot some of my pistols on occasion. Some I have not fired yet, but may one day. If I invest $1700 in a pistol and I fire it and by SOME chance, the firing pin breaks, and I replace it with another, I now have a mis-matched pistol and I just lost several hundred dollars in value even having the original broken firing pin. I honestly feel this is reason for the statements about not firing a very collectable Luger except on rare occasions. It is not the ability of the pistol, but just the unknowns from years of use, abuse, etc. Maybe someone else will chime in on this subject, it is a very good question and I appreciate you asking this. Marvin

03-09-2001, 09:42 PM	#4
Rod User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Sorry - you are correct, I ment to say that I understood the design was for a 9 m/m 124 grain bullet at 1400 feet per second. With standard rounds, I have experienced no wear - which is what I would expect from the design. I am just concerned about the comments that seem to come up and would be interested in hearing about any failures using the design critera. Thanks and best regards, Rod

03-09-2001, 09:51 PM	#5
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Hi Marvin, I think that's an excellent answer! We need to remember that the youngest Luger is still more than fifty year old - and some are 100 years old! That's time for a lot of use, and abuse. Over time even firearms made from the finest of materials (which Lugers, unfortunately, are not - at least my today's standards) develop weaknesses in their parts. Those parts that are the most highly stressed (either in terms of stress magnitude or repetitive stress) develop flaws that are not normally visible to the naked eye. These flaws start out as tiny voids, checks, or separations along the grain boundaries of the steel. Eventually these flaws progress to cracks, and once that happens parts breakage is imminent. Over-pressure ammunition can certainly contribute to how fast these problems develop - as can weak springs, obstructed or constricted chambers or bores, or ammunition that is simply improper. But the bottom line here is the problem is not a poor design; it's advanced age. Marvin is also right on target about the concerns that prevent people from firing Lugers with collector value. To have collector value, a Luger must be all original. Break a part, and it's not all original any more and no longer has any collector value. To illustrate this let me share a story. Some years ago I was at a gun show chatting with a Luger collector at his table. Another fellow came up and he and the collector began negotiating on a stone mint 1916 DWM Artillery. The prospective buyer was examining the pistol when he unintentionally dry fired it. There was a "Snap!", "Ting!", as the firing pin broke and the tip of the firing pin departed for parts unknown. In that fraction of a second a $1400 collector Artillery became a $700 shooter Luger. All of us just froze in place when this happened. We all knew exactly what had occurred, and what it meant. The prospective buyer paid the collector $700 in cash, and walked away (without the Luger!). Everyone was just heartbroken, but it was Humpty Dumpty. The fellow who broke the firing pin was crushed, and mortified. That's the risk in firing a Luger with collector value. It can stop being a collector Luger every time the trigger is pressed :-( Best regards, Kyrie P. S. for reference, I'm going to attach a photo of a cracked P.38 slide. This crack probably started out years ago, and finally reached the surface after hundreds (if not thousands) of rounds after it started as a small check. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/P38CS.jpg

03-09-2001, 09:58 PM	#6
Rod User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Thanks Marvin for the response , you have many very good points. I personaly believe the gun was well designed during the development stage and will take a lot of abuse - I can't fault anyone for wanting to protect his investment. I think the original design is near perfection and will handle anything thrown at it - most commercial loads are to low for the action, but if the design limits were exceeded with hand loads you would have known before you bought the gun. Maybe I'm wrong but in my experience if its going to break it will when you over stress it and not later.

03-09-2001, 10:05 PM	#7
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Hi Rod! Thank you, I understand better Alas, I'm afraid you have been the recipient of bad information. The only Luger cartridge that reached anything like 1400 fps was the 93 grain Luger carbine cartridge - and that velocity was out of an 11.75 inch barrel! Standard Luger fodder was a 123.4 grain bullet, at about 1150 fps (though one sees recorded velocities that range from a low of 1040 fps all the way up to 1250 fps). The pressures standards for the 9 mm Luger cartridge really haven't changed much in the last 100 years. This is a funny subject, with a surprising amount of misinformation bandied about. I suspect this is due to the gun rag writers; most of who seem unable to even rent a clue [smile]. One even hears that US produced 9 mm Luger is loaded "weakly". In point of fact, US (read "SAAMI") 9 mm Luger pressure standards were taken from European pressure standards. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute) call for a MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) of 35,000 psi for the 9 mm Luger. Interestingly enough, that's exactly the same MAP as for the .357 Magnum cartridge Anyway, I hope this helps some! Best regards, Kyrie

03-09-2001, 10:15 PM	#8
Rod User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Thats a very good point - I would rather have the firing pin break at the gun show then that same night at home. Compare the Lugers firing pin design to a Colt Python or others and I think you would agree the the Luger is the better design. I think that the guns design was far superior to quite a few of the offerings today. - they did there their homework as is said in the business.

03-09-2001, 10:23 PM	#9
Rod User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Thanks - that is great info. Regards, Rod

03-09-2001, 10:36 PM	#10
Mark Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Gruss Gott all! I've been reading through the info. presented here and I have a couple of questions I'd like to toss in if that's alright.I've read that one of the problems with the Luger is that it takes a "hot" rd. to cycle the action and that alot of the modern ammo doesn't produce sufficient pressure to do the job.Is this purely a case of misinformation by the authors or do acceptable "standard pressure" loads (as opposed to +P and +P+) vary to such a degree in a general sense that one can't rely at all on the designation that ammo is "standard" pressure? My stainless pistols seem to like 115gr PMP ( South African ).Does anyone have the data on where this ammo fits into the grand scheme of things in this regard? Kryrie,you mentioned part of the problem I'm seeing with one of these guns might be at least partially due to the load.Are you familiar with this particular cartridge and its performance?Could this be a contributing factor to the errosion on the frame that I've seen? Sorry for running on,but I "needs to know" more than I do at this point about almost everything!Thanks! Tschuss! Mark

03-09-2001, 10:49 PM	#11
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dry Fire Question How do you avoid dry firing? I've heard it's dangerous and should be avoided. When you take a gun apart and the firing pin becomes cocked, is there a way to release it without dry firing it? Am I doing something fundamentally wrong if I take a Luger apart, and the firing pin becomes cocked? Honest question from a "newby".

03-09-2001, 11:00 PM	#12
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dry Fire Question 1. Make sure the gun is empty 2. Point it in a safe direction 3. Close the toggle until it is at the point where it is beginning to compress the firing pin spring (3/4 closed) 4. Grip the toggle ears in your cocking hand with the weapon in your firing hand 5. Pull the trigger and assist and ease the toggle closed 6. Firing pin spring is relaxed and firing pin has not been damaged. Ted

03-09-2001, 11:06 PM	#13
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Remember Lugers that are 80 years old and have the original spring still in them MAY have had thousands of rounds through them and the spring tends to weaken over time. With a weak recoil spring and lots of loading/pressure cycels under their belt, the last thing you want to is stoke them with a really hot round just because you read they were designed for a hot round. The original spring did wonders fro absorbing the recoil energy. With the spring in a weakened state that ability is compromised and the frame/and other stops much take it all. NOT GOOD! Ted

03-09-2001, 11:10 PM	#14
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dry Fire Question Thanks Ted! You have taught me what I needed to know once again!

03-09-2001, 11:22 PM	#15
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger ammo What is meant by "a really hot round"? Does that mean the bullet is heavier and exerts more pressure because it is harder to move, or does that mean there is a stronger charge in the cartridge? God, I hope these questions are not stupid!

03-09-2001, 11:24 PM	#16
James E. Foster Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Dry Fire Question Very interesting information on dry firing. I have some of the little plastic bullets (these have springs inside of them), which are specifically designed for dry firing. Has anyone had experience with these? Where the primer would be is a metal plate attached to the internal spring, which should absorb the firing pin shock. I haven't figured out how to get the shell out without cocking the gun again, but might be able to use Ted's procedure!

03-09-2001, 11:41 PM	#17
Mark Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Luger Ammo Gruss Gott,Ted! Point definitely understood and well taken to heart with respect to the older generation of this beautiful work of art.I have a couple of "new" manufacture which shouldn't ( the operative word is "shouldn't") be suffering from spring fatigue at such a young age.I've never fired the 1917 Erfurt. I've only put a few rds. through the '36 Mauser.I'm terrified of messing them up,even if they aren't true collector pieces.To me they are.That's why I bought the new stainless pistols.So I could get some of the fit and feel of the "real" thing without risking injury to said same.But just because my surogate babies aren't the original genuine article doesn't mean I don't still dote on them a bit.I can't help it.They are related! Thanks for reminding me that the others are more advanced in years and suffer from some of the same types of frailties that we all begin to see as time progresses!I can't swear that the temptation to shoot the originals will be forever banished from my thoughts and desires,but your reminders do give me pause to attempt reasoned response when they surface.Thanks! Tschuss! Mark

03-10-2001, 12:25 AM	#18
Mark Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dry Fire Question Gruss Gott! I'll be go to Hell,it works!This is a question I've grappled with ever since the babies were so unfortunate as to come into my guardianship!The manuals all say DO NOT DRY FIRE,but they also fail to mention how this is to be accomplished without leaving the firing pin spring under constant and debilitating pressure.Lacking the technical know= ledge of the pistol,I have always taken care of the delima by doing the forbidden act of releasing the striker.Fortunately I haven't experienced any ill effect(yet!!),but now that I know there is an alternative,I'll damned well use it!Thanks!! Tschuss! Mark P.S. Please feel free to keep amazing me with the variety of interelated (Luger-related) topics which do seem to abound here!!!!

03-10-2001, 12:52 AM	#19
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Luger ammo Hi Mark, Good questions That Lugers need "hot" ammunition to work is misinformation. A Luger in sound mechanical condition will function just fine with standard (read "non +P") ammunition. OTOH, a Luger with mechanical problems (warped frame, binding toggle assembly, and so on) will not function with standard ammunition, but will with over pressure ammunition. What is happening here is the "too hot" ammunition is forcing the Luger past its mechanical problems. But by forcing the mechanism to work when it shouldn't, it's making existing problems worse - and eventually the pistol won't function no matter how "hot" the ammunition is. The bottom line to this is a Luger that will not function with standard ammunition has a mechanical problem not related to ammunition. Regarding the South African PMP ammunition I have fired a lot of it, but don't know to what standard it is manufactured. I can say it's unlikely it was manufactured to SAAMI specification, as it won't even chamber in a SAAMI minimum 9 mm Parabellum chamber. It is possible this ammunition is a contributing cause to the excessive wear you have noticed on your Stainless Luger - I do not fire this ammunition in my Lugers, or my C96's. OTOH, the stainless Lugers have been known to have some metallurgical problems - some of them quite bizarre. I know of one case where one of these Lugers could not be stopped from rusting, even though it was stored at 70 degrees and a humidity that never exceeded 50%. That's pretty wild. So whatever the root cause(s) of the problem you see developing may be, the material the pistol is made from may be a contributing cause - or it may not. I frankly don't understand a lot of things I've seen and have had reported about these Lugers. Hope this helps! Best regards, Kyrie

03-10-2001, 12:54 AM	#20
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dry Fire Question Well Mark, that's how I feel exactly! Aren't we glad that I framed the question and presented it to this wonderful compendium of Luger knowledge? Ted is so neat because he comes to our rescue without condescension or hesitation. I love this forum and the guys participating, because if you ask honest questions, any number of knowledgeable guys will leap forward to supply answers based upon years and years of experience and enthusiasm!