WWII Russian Capture vs. Numbers Matching P08

[CamaroDMD]

The other day I made a post referring to Russian capture Lugers as being "cobbled together" and I was quickly explained that this is untrue. I had been previously told that they were low quality and to be avoided...so this new information somewhat changes my perspective and creates new questions.

As I have said in other posts, I am in the market for my first Luger. Although I have several vintage military guns, I don't consider myself a "collector" in the sense that I seek out rare or special pieces. I love history, and I love owning and shooting firearms that I consider "historical."

That is why I have always wanted a Luger, specifically a WWII Luger. I find the history of that period very interesting.

What I have always wanted was a WWII issue Luger...my guess would be something like a 41 byf or 42 byf. I'm not sure if those best fit my needs...but they are Lugers I'm familiar with. On top of that, I want one in nice shooting condition with a reasonable amount of original finish remaining.

Originally, I had wanted a numbers matching gun (or nearly so) because I wanted something fairly original and I was under the impression that the Russian captures were "cobbled together." I have recently been informed that they were assembled from parts by very good armors and issued to police following the war.

With this new information, I am wondering if a RC gun is best for me...or should I look for something numbers matching (or nearly so)? Can you find 41 byf or 42 byf RCs with decent original finish and good shooters? I don't want to make a unnecessary investment into a numbers matching gun just to go out and shoot it and hurt the collector value...since the collector value doesn't mean much to me.

What would (or should) the difference in price be here?

I know this is a lot of rambling questions...but I want to decide what is best for me before I actually go out and try and buy one.

Thanks.

[mrerick]

A collectable Luger would be priced 40% to 50% higher than a shooter in good condition.

A very high end shooter should be under $1000 or so.

I have two shooter Lugers. One is all matching, and has finish issues that push it below collectable. I paid a shooter price for it. The other has an all matching receiver/ barrel/cannon assembly and a differently numbered all matching frame assembly.

The key is that it was put together by someone that knew how to fit the precision fit components, and it runs properly.

So - buy a shooter and shoot it. If you want a pristine looking Luger, get a mismatch.

Marc

[DavidJayUden]

Kind of a tough question and one that only you can answer. Yes the late war guns are good shooters, and yes you could hurt the value if you broke a part in a collectable gun.
Ask yourself, will you be content with a RC gun? If yes, then buy one. But if not, don't.
I have a Navy shooter, and artillery shooter and a 4" shooter. The latter is a 1936 gun, original everything except maybe the un-numbered hold-open. But I bought it at a shooter price, it looks good, and I enjoy it very much. It shoots no better or worse than a VOPO or RC, but I just like it more. Lugers are more than shooters, they food for our minds and excite our imaginations, and it gives me that.
If you look hard you should be able to find a nice shooter grade gun for not all that much more than an "X" gun. And unless you do something really stupid, it will hold its value. Comfort yourself in paying a few dollars more for an "investment".
Just my $.02. and you got exactly what you paid for...
dju

[jonnyc]

I've had a total of 5 Lugers, and as a great shooter with super history, my RC is the only one I've kept. I really love the grips too.

[sheepherder]

Richard, I don't have a RC/VoPo refurb Luger, but I do have a RC/VoPo P-38. I posted some pics of it down in the Off Topic & Other Firearms forum. Take a look; I feel it is a representative example of a little-used VoPo pistol. Hopefully, the VoPo Lugers are as well done.

BTW: I also purchased a set of the Russian Luger grips like jonnyc commented on (vertical grooves instead of checkering; black Bakelite instead of wood) - They are awesome...

If you see a Luger with these grips, zero in on it...It should be a good one...

[Levi 42]

I don't post here very often and I'm by no means a Luger expert but I do own a 42 byf Russian Capture Luger with the exact grips as shown in the last posting. It is a really good shooter with "eye appeal" even if the finish is not original. (I've added after market wooden grips)

I'm under the impression, from reading past postings here, that the Russians applied a "dipped finish?" when they rebuilt these guns. Mine has all matching numbers except the barrel. The barrel, however, is from a much earlier Luger and has a stacked N with a Crown symbol as it's only markings. It even came with two correctly numbered magazines (one of which is an fxo) I believe the Russians numbered them, but I'm not sure.

My point is, I don't think you will find many RC's with original finish but shooting a nice original finished Luger, even if you get it at a "shooter price" is not recommend because of the possibility of breaking an original part that will de-value the gun . I don't worry about that with my RC.

Just my thoughts on the subject,

Levi

[Levi 42]

Actually I lied. I got out the grips that came on my RC and they are the same color but checkered with a circle near the top and outlined. Not like the other two grips shown at all.

Sorry

[jonnyc]

I believe your "circled" grips are from an East German "Vopo".

[Levi 42]

Thanks Johnnyc, I realize I have a lot to learn. I bought it as a VOPO but it also has the big "X" after the serial number on the receiver. Do all VOPO"s have that"X" also? or were some spared the ugly mark?

[alanint]

Some do and some don't.

As a general rule, "X'd out" guns passed through Russian arsenals, while the DDR also had mountians of surrendered stuff that never left its borders and was simply reissued. This stuff, including VoPo Lugers, would probably not be "X'ed out".

[jonnyc]

Oddly enough, my pistol has all the hallmarks of an RC, but I can't find an X on it.

[Dan44]

Not all Russian captured Lugers are miss-matched. I have an all matching dipped and imported P08. BYF 42

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Oddly enough, my pistol has all the hallmarks of an RC, but I can't find an X on it.

not all had an 'x'

[JonS/42]

My WWII Soviet capture 1938 S/42 was dipped, and the grips were mis-matched, but all other parts were matching.

Best, Jon

[Dwight Gruber]

A bi of clairification:

"Russian capture" Lugers are generally matching, not repaired or rebuilt. They frequently have an X stamped somewhere on the pistol. Their wooden grips were usually removed for storage, replaced with new plastic grips when they were reissued. What is usually referred to as the "Russian dip" is different from the chemical salt-blue bath used in Mauser P08 production beginning in 1937. "Russian dip" is a very tough, paint-like application applied over whatever finish was on the pistol--or not--at the time.

P08s of the Deutsche Volkspolizei were pistols left in arms caches, repair depots, or scrounged wherever they could be found in East Germany. They ranged from needing repair to barely usable even for parts. East German police armorers created serviceable pistols by repairing the best pistols with parts scavenged from irrepairable pistols, or by assembling new Lugers by cannibalizing other pistols wholesale. DVP Lugers usually have force-matched parts and new barrels, and were brought fully up to specification by capable armorers (see Police Lugers, Chapter 5). Russia surreptitously shipped Lugers from their captured stocks to East Germany in contravention of post-war treaty agreements.

--Dwight