P08 krieghoff 1923

Sergio Natali · 03-26-2013, 01:18 PM

At a local gunshop I've seen a Krieghoff Luger dated 1923. I'm trying to become more of an expert on P08 (but I think I've got still a long way to go) What confuses me most is the date, 1923, how is possible 1923 when if I'm not wrong Krieghoff started manufacturing Luger pistols only after Simson production was stopped in 1933 wa. I've always believed that in 1923 there were only BKIW (ex DWM since 1922) and Simson (ex Erfurt since 1920 although

production started only in 1925 I think) I'm a bit confused with these dates, is there some P08 guru to help me a bit please?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/graemlins/banghead.gif

gill120 · 03-26-2013, 01:56 PM

Kreighoff was also a retail seller at that time and marketed many firearms , not actually manufacted by kreighoff.

Dwight Gruber · 03-26-2013, 03:36 PM

A 1923 date on a Luger ranges from extremely unusual to impossible. The Kriegoff-marked DWM pistols date from 1921.

It would be really interesting to see detailed pictures of this pistol if you can come up with them.

--Dwight

Sergio Natali · 03-26-2013, 04:00 PM

I cannot post photo, unless I'll find one on the site of the gunshop, ok I'll try but it won't be a very good photo.

Sergio Natali · 03-26-2013, 04:10 PM

Here you are two photos taken from the gunshop commercial. I hope they can be useful.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-26-2013, 08:01 PM

An Alphabet Commercial pistol. Why would you think it is a Krieghoff dated 1923? It is numbered in the Military open exposed number fashion. Is there any photo of the chamber (date) or the toggle top DWM-likely or Krieghoff logo?

mrerick · 03-26-2013, 09:05 PM

You are correct, Krieghoff didn't get the tooling to manufacture new Lugers until Simson was shut down after 1933.

If "Kriefhoff" was engraved across the back of the frame near the receiver, it was sold by them.

Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 03-26-2013, 09:49 PM

Marc is correct..it may have the Krieghoff marking like he says but that still does not explain the 1923?

Dwight Gruber · 03-26-2013, 11:28 PM

This appears to be a military P08 proofed in the Suhl civil proof house after some (unknown) modification for sale in the commercial marketplace. Because Krieghoff was located in Suhl, the double c/N civil proof is commonly (erroneous "conventional wisdom") attributed to Krieghoff.

Chamber dates and acceptance/proof marks are often removed during commercial modification. There does not appear to be a stock lug, it is not clear whether this is original, a removal, or a result of photo processing.

The 'Krieghoff-Suhl' marked Alphabet Commercial pistols made in 1921 have hidden serial numbers, DWM toggle marking, and the upright c/N receiver proof

Thanks for showing us the pictures. The pistol still cannot be fully identified.

--Dwight

Sergio Natali · 03-27-2013, 04:26 AM

According to the gunshop, it is: quote "a KRIEGHOFF "REWORKED" with the tipical KRIEGHOFF small markings" unquote

(?)

lugersrkewl · 03-27-2013, 11:27 AM

I thought that too but where is the 1923 coming from? the serial number and suffix? why would it have military serials ? looks like an imperial dwm. can you get pictures of the top and left side of barrel extension?

Douglas Jr. · 03-27-2013, 02:33 PM

Maybe they are still using the "old" nomenclature "1920 Commercial" (now called '20 DWM" / "1923 Commercial" (now "Alphabet Lugers").

Sergio Natali · 03-27-2013, 03:59 PM

Sos these are the only photo available, so the mystery still remains.

03-26-2013, 01:18 PM	#1
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	P08 krieghoff 1923 At a local gunshop I've seen a Krieghoff Luger dated 1923. I'm trying to become more of an expert on P08 (but I think I've got still a long way to go) What confuses me most is the date, 1923, how is possible 1923 when if I'm not wrong Krieghoff started manufacturing Luger pistols only after Simson production was stopped in 1933 wa. I've always believed that in 1923 there were only BKIW (ex DWM since 1922) and Simson (ex Erfurt since 1920 although production started only in 1925 I think) I'm a bit confused with these dates, is there some P08 guru to help me a bit please? http://forum.lugerforum.com/graemlins/banghead.gif

03-26-2013, 04:10 PM	#5
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Here you are two photos taken from the gunshop commercial. I hope they can be useful. Attached Thumbnails

03-26-2013, 08:01 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	An Alphabet Commercial pistol. Why would you think it is a Krieghoff dated 1923? It is numbered in the Military open exposed number fashion. Is there any photo of the chamber (date) or the toggle top DWM-likely or Krieghoff logo? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-26-2013, 09:05 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	You are correct, Krieghoff didn't get the tooling to manufacture new Lugers until Simson was shut down after 1933. If "Kriefhoff" was engraved across the back of the frame near the receiver, it was sold by them. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-26-2013, 09:49 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Marc is correct..it may have the Krieghoff marking like he says but that still does not explain the 1923? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-26-2013, 01:56 PM	#2
gill120 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 95 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts	Kreighoff was also a retail seller at that time and marketed many firearms , not actually manufacted by kreighoff.

03-26-2013, 03:36 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	A 1923 date on a Luger ranges from extremely unusual to impossible. The Kriegoff-marked DWM pistols date from 1921. It would be really interesting to see detailed pictures of this pistol if you can come up with them. --Dwight

03-26-2013, 04:00 PM	#4
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I cannot post photo, unless I'll find one on the site of the gunshop, ok I'll try but it won't be a very good photo.

03-26-2013, 11:28 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	This appears to be a military P08 proofed in the Suhl civil proof house after some (unknown) modification for sale in the commercial marketplace. Because Krieghoff was located in Suhl, the double c/N civil proof is commonly (erroneous "conventional wisdom") attributed to Krieghoff. Chamber dates and acceptance/proof marks are often removed during commercial modification. There does not appear to be a stock lug, it is not clear whether this is original, a removal, or a result of photo processing. The 'Krieghoff-Suhl' marked Alphabet Commercial pistols made in 1921 have hidden serial numbers, DWM toggle marking, and the upright c/N receiver proof Thanks for showing us the pictures. The pistol still cannot be fully identified. --Dwight

03-27-2013, 04:26 AM	#10
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	According to the gunshop, it is: quote "a KRIEGHOFF "REWORKED" with the tipical KRIEGHOFF small markings" unquote (?)

03-27-2013, 11:27 AM	#11
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	I thought that too but where is the 1923 coming from? the serial number and suffix? why would it have military serials ? looks like an imperial dwm. can you get pictures of the top and left side of barrel extension?

03-27-2013, 02:33 PM	#12
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Maybe they are still using the "old" nomenclature "1920 Commercial" (now called '20 DWM" / "1923 Commercial" (now "Alphabet Lugers").

03-27-2013, 03:59 PM	#13
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Sos these are the only photo available, so the mystery still remains.