My Weekly Editorial

Well guys here is my weekly(not weakly) editorial from the mind and nimble fingers of this Luger Collector. There has been some very good discussion this week (Thank You Sam!), regarding the die making outfit, that is currently producing the dies for unscrupulus dealers and collectors to intentionally add proof marks, toggle stampings, and more or less take an ordinary P08 and make a very highly collectable out of it. What should we as Luger Collectors do to protect our own interests and more importantly protect the respectability of this hobby? First of all, and formost, forgery in any form is against the law, especially when it involves guns. We as collectors, have enough problems without having to disect every Luger for fakes and forgeries. The first step is to allert the BATF that there is someone out there who is INTENTIONALLY FAKING Lugers, and allert them to the company making the dies. The BATF will certainly get a list of his customers and hopefully put an end to this. Hey guys and Gals as someone stated earlier, there is allot of money to be made, creating rare and highly desireable collector grade guns, especially Lugers. Some may say Caveat Emptor, POPPYCOCK(no I'm not Brittish, even though there is nothing wrong with the Brits). It is high time that we as collectors, hold those from whom we buy things, accountable for their authenticity and described condition(original,re-done, refinnished, etc.) Any thing less is unacceptable in my book, and should be in yours if you truly care about this hobby as I do. Dealers that sell fakes and forgeries should be revealed to everyone, including the BATF. Mistakes happen, but these instances are totally separate. Yes, degree of finnish, and condition, differ from person to person. The buyer should ALLWAYS have the option to terminate the sale if not satisfied with the product. Further, and lastly, let's help each other, by exposing the people behind this deciet. It's not fair to the beginning collector, and will ruin interest in this area of collecting if allowed to continue.


Till Next Time,

Good Collecting!


Timothy Canney

Tim, I agree with your comments, but there's no law on the books about remarking a pistol, except changing the frame serial number without ATF permission. So at worst, these fakers are guilty of fraud or misrepresentation if they tell you that a pistol is something other than what it is. The best advise that I can offer, and this applies to most things in life, is "When in doubt, Don't do it". Tom h

Tom,


Great points, well taken. To all you "newbies" (I hate that term), Tom is a great resource for information. I agree particularly with your statement, regarding "If it Doesn't feel right don't do it" and would add my own advice, If it's too good to be true( a "Death's Head" Luger for $900.00), that it most probably is too good to be true. I don't as I stated today and several times before agree that any dealer has the right to adapt a Cavaet Emptor mentality to his business dealings and should stand behind the deal, from at least, if nothing else, a customer service issue. If any of you know of a dealer who is practicing deciet, it is in my opinion, as a member of this collecting community, your RESPONSIBILITY to make it known, so others don't get burned. I further believe, that it is a persons first dealing that will set the tone for his or her collecting future interest. Fraud is FRAUD, plain and simple, I have no problem sharing my impressions of dealers with fellow members. We have a wealth of knowlege and togather we are a force to be reckoned with.


Till Next Time,


Timothy Canney

[dgp42]

Caveat Emptor.Even the biggest and best can be deceitful. Unfortunately " the LOVE of money is at times the root of evil". IMO

I agree 125% but it isn't an excuse the dealer can use in dealing with the buyer, no matter what the circumstances, PERIOD! It is the BUYERS money. I'm not saying "don't be cautious" by any means. Exactly the opposite. HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE, THEY MOST CERTAINLY WILL YOU!


Till Next Time,


Timothy Canney

[Uncle Mike]

[David Jackson]

Mike mentions that fraud is a crime. I believe that is correct, isn't it?

I also believe that dealers can get in trouble for even unintentionally selling faked or otherwise bogus merchandise as a dealer in anything valuable, whether it be furniture, paintings, or collectable firearms is presumed, by the nature of his business, to be an expert; more knowledeable than his or her customer.

Any lawyers using the forum who might care to comment on ways to slow down cheating dealers?

[dgp42]

I think we're both preaching to the choir. I don't think you can legislate honesty and morality. We're all deceitful at some level. If you are aware of someone in the Luger collecting community that is less than honest and is practicing confirmed deceit, on any level, their name should be posted for all to see.IMO

[Johnny Peppers]

I am certainly not a lawyer, but there is a well known dealer (not a Luger dealer) that is famous for his fakes and fantasy pieces. If a customer questions one of his firearms, he immediately makes a total refund. Not too many people want to get into a legal tangle, and if they can just get their money back with no hassle they feel like they have come out way ahead. The dealer continues on with his fakery as no one cares to take him to court. In todays court system you have absolutely no assurance that you will win even with overwhelming evience of his fakery. It is better to be extremely cautious to a fault rather than depend on our judicial system to bail you out of a bad deal.

[dgp42]

JP, I could'nt agree with you more.Knowledge is power. And the more you learn about an area of collecting, the more informed are your purchases. A few years ago I bought a Luger that was represented as being 99% original from a knowledgable dealer. After showing my prize to several fellow gun enthusiasts with the comment of " maybe it has been restored?". I sent it off to be evaluated by a well known expert in Lugers. The Pistol came back with " it's been very well restored and not original finish". Was worth half of what I paid. Seller still disputed the experts written opinion. However,lucky for me, I was given a full refund.And I've been collecting firearms for 20 years. So, it's back to Caveat Emptor. Wish it was'nt so. But, thats the reality of the human condition. IMO

[Herb]

Unfortunately this is not confined to Lugers. I used to also collect Nazi Political dress daggers which can bet really expensive. After arming myself with all of the books on how to spot forgeries I finally gave up. These guys were getting fakes out of Spain that were nearly undetectable, fixing the flaws and even burying them in the ground for a time to make them look appropriately 'aged'. There are low-lifes every where out there that will do anything for a buck. Old saying

"If it looks too good to be true, it probably is" Their actions will someday ruin collecting as there will be as many fakes as there are originals, and commanding more money.