Anyone has more info about this piece?

[lugerP08thomas]

All i know it says made in West Germany





Thanks

[Edward Tinker]

its a toy isn't it?

[lugersrkewl]

I know that hole in the sideplate isnt good

[lugerP08thomas]

Personally I was thinking it's a 8mm knal variation...but I hope someone know's it and can tell me more

[ithacaartist]

Well, if it says West Germany, then it's from the time period from roughly the end of WWII until the wall went down, as this is how imports to USA would have been marked. And I don't think it's a toy.

It is obviously a pure blow-back firing system pistol with internal trigger/sear setup. It has many similarities to the KGP series manufactured by Erma.

Some time ago, I came across a pic that was, IIRC, a display of Erma models and prototypes, enough of them to be arranged in a giant sunburst. (I should have snagged a copy of it for future reference, because the link I had to it is now dead, sorry) My best recollection is that some of the examples pictured looked very Luger-y. Conceivably, the KGP series could very well have started out as a prototype sporting a phony side plate which was later discarded in the final production models.

The KGP68(A) came in .32 auto and 9mmKurz (.380) and the KGP69 was a .22 lr., so this could incorporate the "8mm" guess.

If you post some dimensions, or can field strip it for further pics, I bet this idea will be borne out. It can be established rather easily if it breaks down like an Erma, and I can guide you through a take-down and re-assembly.)

There's also an acquaintance on another forum who is compiling an Erma data base of serial numbers, dates, and proofs, and I know he'll find this one most interesting.

[lfid]

looks erma-ish to me also - the magazine design and mag looks new mfg, the large slide lug, frame profile with no lanyard loop and no stock lug profile

looks kind of like some original luger parts were used and modified

close up flat area near sideplate should be interesting

patina overall maybe corrison test ?

thanks for sharing

Bill

[lugerP08thomas]

A hunter used it before so will see when it comes. I will disassemble and make pictures

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

I know that hole in the sideplate isnt good

No, It's fine. This is for the pin that goes thru for the trigger. The side plate here is phony, just part of the cast frame. See part #6 here http://www.gun-parts.com/erma/Er%2068.jpg

[lfid]

there was an article in a french gun magazine that featured a .22 caliber luger-like gun also marked west germany which had features very similiar to the one pictured in this thread. it had 6" bbl and slightly recessed 9mm size muzzle recess but the 22 barrel was not hidden much - and overall gun was more realistic ( than the erma variants ) like this one here

it had similiar text/symbol imprinted on frame flat between the sideplate and the safety lever
and also had 2 pins thru the frame in same odd places, and the toggle asy had same features
and also same grip cfg

the finish looked like flat black spray paint/coating

so perhaps this one here is a 380 variant ?
what is the text on the left side frame flat ? it may include the caliber etc

also disassembly pictures would be very interesting

perhaps erma had some trial sales products ( ie let public do beta test ) or maybe design was purchased by erma

Bill

[ithacaartist]

As I said earlier, I believe Erma made a raft of stuff that not many have actually seen--particularly stateside. I'm trying to re-establish contact with that other-forum member, and subsequently that pic that I recall having seen. He hasn't posted in a while, so I'm checking, basically, to see if he's still alive and active on that forum, and still collecting for his database. If I find this to be so, I'll post a link to the database thread, or see if I can get his email address so that others on this forum who have Ermas can contribute, as well.

Bill, that might have been a similar prototype or predecessor to the KGP69, which is a .22lr. Can you dredge up a link to that French publication?

I bought some parts and corresponded briefly with another guy who had worked for L.A. Distributors in NY, back in the day. He advised that at a certain point, the earlier, full-size/weight cast Zamak models were imported unfinished, and a sprayed-on coating was used to give them a finish after arrival--at least at that distributorship.

Thomas, I find this discovery of yours intriguing and really look forward to more pics, a tale of how you've acquired it, and perhaps how much $ it cost.

D.P.

[lfid]

DP,
turns out copy 2 is still for sale on ebay ! no association etc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141135488828...84.m1423.l2648

article has some decent pictures and there is lots of text in French

I think there is some way to scan the text and then paste it into online translator
but so far Im not scan to text literate

actually a decent looking product - but suspect it was a someday teaser / its coming soon sales pitch possibly provided text to the publisher

Bill

[Andyd]

Markings are clear : 9mm K for Knall and it has the PTB stamp.
I guess it's an ME P08

[Andyd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhGVh3k4No4

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by lfid

I think there is some way to scan the text and then paste it into online translator
but so far Im not scan to text literate

actually a decent looking product - but suspect it was a someday teaser / its coming soon sales pitch possibly provided text to the publisher

Bill

Thanks Bill,

Scanning the page into image file format would work. Translation of French could happen from that, I think. Try this method and post the pics?

The serial number of the one on YouTube is 7xxx, so one would think at least that many of them were made. Any European members know if these were actually available on the market?

Otherwise, I've re-established contact with Holger from the Gunboards forum, and he's attempting to find that pic, somewhere on another H.D., he thinks. He took the photo, from his collection, and said if he could not find the old pic, he would re-shoot. I'll send him the pics and links from this thread and see if he can shed some definitive light on the subject, as he is from Munich.

D.P.

[lfid]

Andyd - thanks for the link
first part google translates to
"ME Cuno Melcher P08 blank gun
Video of the blank firing replica of the Luger P08 pistol."

DP - thanks for tip - will try the image file method and see what happens - probably two weeks or so

the french article appears to be definitely 22 lr - so would be interesting if these may become available someday

thanks
Bill

[Andyd]

lfid,

it may also be a "gas pistol", those used to be very common in Germany. Companies like Umarex built their commercial success on these rather cheap guns. The barrel has to be some zinc alloy that will melt when been milled or drilled to get the PTB stamp.

My guess is that lugerP08thomas was just testing the knowledge base here. The photo does not reveal the threads inside the barrel for some gadget to fire pyrotechnics.

Firearms manufactured in Germany and France are usually proof fired - even if they were made for export. This one has the PTB only.

[lfid]

others at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mChdv0CaNNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17B_3nd56fI

apparently the company is
http://www.me-sportwaffen.de/dispite...othmue8t8l53i6

90411 ME Mod P 04 decoration,
- Without cartridge bearing
- Number of shots: 0
- Running Läge: 170 mm
- Overall length: 285 mm
- Weight: 974 g
- Safety: trigger safety

so seems to exist as super toy / collectible
thanks
Bill

[ithacaartist]

OK, got the answers. Test? I hope this exchange demonstrates the power of this forum to answer questions such as this--if not from knowledge immediately available, then through research and connections to such a variety of people and collectors that we can eventually figure it out!

All of the pistols where you shared the pictures with me are ZAMAK build models from a company called Melcher (http://www.me-sportwaffen.de/). They build cheap gas tear and model guns since the 1960's and are still in business. I know the guy whom made the YouTube video. He used a tear gas version in caliber 9mmPAK which you can buy without a license in Germany if you are 18 years old or older. Those guns are also free to own in some other European countries. People are buying those as in those countries the legal hurdles make it hard to obtain a real gun. They use it for self security (loaded with CS gas or pepper cartouches) or for the fire works at New Year or simple as a kind of collector.

The gun on the cover of the French guns magazine is a special one-shot .22lr version for the French market. In the 1980's single shot .22lr pistols with a certain minimal barrel length have been free to own in France. Beside Melcher also Erma did also produce a model (the KGP69E). Those pistols are quite rare today as these guns do need a firearms license in France since the 1990's.

The gun your shared the three pictures is a special finished version of the Melcher gas tear and alarm pistol. It was called "antique finish" when they sold it.

Hope that helps.