Thinking of purchasing 1st Luger

Jason60chev · 03-01-2014, 09:43 PM

Hello All,
New member here thinking about purchasing my 1st Luger. It belongs to a gun dealer friend of mine, whom I have known for 30 years. Don't think he would screw me. He has a Erfurt 1912 luger which I am considering. It appears to have all matching parts/numbers, except for the grip panels, the toggle pin and one of the grip screws does not have a inspection stamp on it. It has little finish left on it and the barrel is a little dark with some rifling still showing. A quick bullet test on a 9mm cartridge inserted into the muzzle with about 1/16" to end of case. Only one magazine with wood bottom, but not numbered or ID's in any way. Mag itself looks like a flat, brushed finish...almost like media blasted. There are no visible import marks. Have not disassembled it for inspection. Looks well used but still functions and is not loose or broken. There is a unit number marking on the front of the grip. He says that person he got it from paid $900 for it about 3 years ago. His asking price on his tag is $1,100 and he's offering to me for $1000 cash or trade. I know value determination is impossible without pictures, but I don;t want to over pay for this of trade something of a greater value.
Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, Jason

DavidJayUden · 03-01-2014, 10:49 PM

Kind of tough without pictures, and some of the problems you describe can be game changers, lowering the appeal into a shooter category. However on the other hand, you want a Luger, your buddy has one, you can see it in the flesh, versus over the net, and it is, after all, only a grand. You can't go too wrong. If it is a complete roach you will only loose a couple hundred, but I doubt that to be the case.
And right or wrong, I always seem to give pre-WW1 guns a bit more leeway.
Welcome aboard!
dju

ithacaartist · 03-01-2014, 11:00 PM

Welcome to the forum, Jason. It's easier to ballpark value a pistol if we can see a comprehensive set of photos. The condition of whatever finish remains would be easier to assess. In the meantime, the shortcomings you've mentioned so far are not major. Some collectors are sticklers about matching number grips; others, not so much. And it is likely you can scare up a grip screw with the Erfurt proof, as well as an Erfurt mag. (Original mags for your gun would, I believe, be constructed of nickel plated steel with walnut bottom, numbered and appropriately proofed. I think yours may have an after market, or a messed-with commercial mag--which were not numbered. Firing pin matching, too? My spidey sense says that $1k might be a little high, it is near top end of shooter range. You can find a Luger nicer than this one sounds for the same $--possibly right here in the WTS section of the forum. Let's see what others have to say...

Jason60chev · 03-03-2014, 10:28 PM

Gentlemen,

Here are some pics I took today of the 1912 Erfurt Luger available to me for $1000. I tried to take as many showing all the markings as I could. You can see that it is well worn, nearly no finish left. There is no number on the aft toggle pin. There is no inspection mark on one of the grip screws. The grips numbers do not match the gun, either and in fact, if you look closely at the left side panel, it does not fit flush with the frame. Could have been changed at ANY time! Couldn;t get a good pic inside the barrel, but looked to be enough rifle to shoot decent. Unit marking...anyone know which unit it is? Oh, wood bottom mag, but not marked. Only one may with gun. Hope you knowlegable guys can now give an opinion. I know it is a shooter......question really is true value. Thanks! Jason

Remainder of pics will be in next post....

Jason60chev · 03-03-2014, 10:35 PM

Here are the rest of the pics. I did not disassemble to pistol to see if the firing pin matches. The Hold Open has NOT been added to this pistol. Thanks, Jason

lugerholsterrepair · 03-03-2014, 11:16 PM

I am no unit mark expert but I believe it's marked to a Jaeger Regiment? Machine gun detachment. 1912, unit marked, MG and no holdopen. i'm in for a K easy. Yeah it's a tad rough but it's rare. It's got interesting collector pistol all over it.

cirelaw · 03-03-2014, 11:20 PM

Jerry I agree with you and I'm running it my George.. The two of you are my Heros!!

Jason60chev · 03-03-2014, 11:38 PM

Jerry.....Thanks for your message. Could you offer anything further reagrding the pistol it's markings or lack of them and the unit marking, as well as your assessment of $1000 being a fair price? Thanks,
Jason

lugerholsterrepair · 03-04-2014, 12:02 AM

Jason, Could you offer anything further regarding the pistol it's markings or lack of them ? Not yet..One of our unit mark guys like George Anderson can give us a reading on the unit mark.

YOU will have to look into the insides to see what can be found there as far as matching numbers.

IMO I would buy it for a grand and not look back but I appreciate these old Imperial warhorses more than most. Yeah..it's not perfect but it has some very interesting features not found everyday.

ithacaartist · 03-04-2014, 05:00 AM

I like it, too. It just shrieks history, experience, and character. I'd clean it thoroughly and leave all its charm just the way it is.

alanint · 03-04-2014, 07:57 AM

A great historical piece. If you are buying a Luger to shoot, this isn't the one. Although rough, it has a great history.

The wood magazine bottom is a modern replacement, to my eyes.

George Anderson · 03-04-2014, 11:04 AM

From what I can make out, the marking is "R.J.R.248.M.G.Z.30". It indicates Reserve Infantrie Regiment 248, Maschinegewehr Zug, Waffe 30 (Reserve Infantry Regiment 248, Machinegun platoon , weapon 30)

Jason60chev · 03-04-2014, 11:39 AM

Found this page which mentions the Reserve Infantry Regiment 248 in the XXVII Reserve Corp having been formed in 1914. Mentions Reserve Infantry Regiments and Reserve Jager Battalions. So on this iston, is the "RJR" a Jager or Infantry regiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXVII_R...ITEREFCron2002

Thanks! Jason

Found this later on......http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles...arks_5_09.html
At the bottom of the Page there is a list of marking achronyms and meanings....

R.J.B. = Reserver Jager Battalion

R.I.R. and R.J.R = Reserve Infantry Regiment.

So now I know!

Thanks!

Jason60chev · 03-04-2014, 11:40 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXVII_R...ITEREFCron2002

OOPS! Here's the link....

Jason60chev · 03-04-2014, 01:12 PM

[QUOTE=alanint;251030]A great historical piece. If you are buying a Luger to shoot, this isn't the one. Although rough, it has a great history.

Is there any danger of breakage if this pistol were to be fired?

Ron Wood · 03-04-2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason60chev

Is there any danger of breakage if this pistol were to be fired?

Yes indeed. That puppy is over 100 years old and looks like it has served its purpose well with all the scars and wear that comes with its age. It deserves a graceful retirement with you as its caretaker until it passes on to the next owner.

Jason60chev · 03-04-2014, 04:22 PM

Hello....Thanks to all who have replied to my inquiries. I came across thor's (Ted's Luger restoration) service and wonder if it would be a bad idea to restore this pistol. I would be inclined to clean it as advised and leave it just the way it is, but would like other opinions from knowledgable folks. Thanks, Jason

DavidJayUden · 03-04-2014, 05:21 PM

IMHO restoration is a bad idea. First of all you would invest lots of money that you would NEVER get back.
Secondly, the value of that Luger, overall, would dramatically DECREASE once it is restored.
The value in that Luger is that it has been around and that it has earned each and every nick, scratch and bit of wear on it. It is a historic artifact, not a safe queen.
Now I'm not knocking Thor's services, he is first rate. But I feel strongly that restoration is not appropriate in this case.
Sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear.
And shooting it isn't a good idea either.
Not much fun, are we?
dju

ithacaartist · 03-04-2014, 06:54 PM

I forgot to say, before, that this old prize fighter of a pistol--with broken nose and cauliflower ear--ought not to be shot, simply in consideration of preserving its serial numbered parts and the value of the investment it would represent. There is a need to scratch the Luger Itch, so you now also seek a shooter rather than create one from this by shooting or refinishing...and then... you'll need a really pretty, collectible one!

cirelaw · 03-04-2014, 07:55 PM

You will always remember your first~~~~~~

03-01-2014, 09:43 PM	#1
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thinking of purchasing 1st Luger Hello All, New member here thinking about purchasing my 1st Luger. It belongs to a gun dealer friend of mine, whom I have known for 30 years. Don't think he would screw me. He has a Erfurt 1912 luger which I am considering. It appears to have all matching parts/numbers, except for the grip panels, the toggle pin and one of the grip screws does not have a inspection stamp on it. It has little finish left on it and the barrel is a little dark with some rifling still showing. A quick bullet test on a 9mm cartridge inserted into the muzzle with about 1/16" to end of case. Only one magazine with wood bottom, but not numbered or ID's in any way. Mag itself looks like a flat, brushed finish...almost like media blasted. There are no visible import marks. Have not disassembled it for inspection. Looks well used but still functions and is not loose or broken. There is a unit number marking on the front of the grip. He says that person he got it from paid $900 for it about 3 years ago. His asking price on his tag is $1,100 and he's offering to me for $1000 cash or trade. I know value determination is impossible without pictures, but I don;t want to over pay for this of trade something of a greater value. Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, Jason

03-01-2014, 11:00 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Welcome to the forum, Jason. It's easier to ballpark value a pistol if we can see a comprehensive set of photos. The condition of whatever finish remains would be easier to assess. In the meantime, the shortcomings you've mentioned so far are not major. Some collectors are sticklers about matching number grips; others, not so much. And it is likely you can scare up a grip screw with the Erfurt proof, as well as an Erfurt mag. (Original mags for your gun would, I believe, be constructed of nickel plated steel with walnut bottom, numbered and appropriately proofed. I think yours may have an after market, or a messed-with commercial mag--which were not numbered. Firing pin matching, too? My spidey sense says that $1k might be a little high, it is near top end of shooter range. You can find a Luger nicer than this one sounds for the same $--possibly right here in the WTS section of the forum. Let's see what others have to say... __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-03-2014, 10:28 PM	#4
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1912 Erfurt Available Gentlemen, Here are some pics I took today of the 1912 Erfurt Luger available to me for $1000. I tried to take as many showing all the markings as I could. You can see that it is well worn, nearly no finish left. There is no number on the aft toggle pin. There is no inspection mark on one of the grip screws. The grips numbers do not match the gun, either and in fact, if you look closely at the left side panel, it does not fit flush with the frame. Could have been changed at ANY time! Couldn;t get a good pic inside the barrel, but looked to be enough rifle to shoot decent. Unit marking...anyone know which unit it is? Oh, wood bottom mag, but not marked. Only one may with gun. Hope you knowlegable guys can now give an opinion. I know it is a shooter......question really is true value. Thanks! Jason Remainder of pics will be in next post.... Attached Thumbnails

03-03-2014, 10:35 PM	#5
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1912 Erfurt continued Here are the rest of the pics. I did not disassemble to pistol to see if the firing pin matches. The Hold Open has NOT been added to this pistol. Thanks, Jason Attached Thumbnails

03-03-2014, 11:16 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I am no unit mark expert but I believe it's marked to a Jaeger Regiment? Machine gun detachment. 1912, unit marked, MG and no holdopen. i'm in for a K easy. Yeah it's a tad rough but it's rare. It's got interesting collector pistol all over it. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-01-2014, 10:49 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Kind of tough without pictures, and some of the problems you describe can be game changers, lowering the appeal into a shooter category. However on the other hand, you want a Luger, your buddy has one, you can see it in the flesh, versus over the net, and it is, after all, only a grand. You can't go too wrong. If it is a complete roach you will only loose a couple hundred, but I doubt that to be the case. And right or wrong, I always seem to give pre-WW1 guns a bit more leeway. Welcome aboard! dju

03-03-2014, 11:20 PM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Jerry I agree with you and I'm running it my George.. The two of you are my Heros!!

03-03-2014, 11:38 PM	#8
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry.....Thanks for your message. Could you offer anything further reagrding the pistol it's markings or lack of them and the unit marking, as well as your assessment of $1000 being a fair price? Thanks, Jason

03-04-2014, 12:02 AM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Jason, Could you offer anything further regarding the pistol it's markings or lack of them ? Not yet..One of our unit mark guys like George Anderson can give us a reading on the unit mark. YOU will have to look into the insides to see what can be found there as far as matching numbers. IMO I would buy it for a grand and not look back but I appreciate these old Imperial warhorses more than most. Yeah..it's not perfect but it has some very interesting features not found everyday. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-04-2014, 05:00 AM	#10
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	I like it, too. It just shrieks history, experience, and character. I'd clean it thoroughly and leave all its charm just the way it is. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-04-2014, 07:57 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	A great historical piece. If you are buying a Luger to shoot, this isn't the one. Although rough, it has a great history. The wood magazine bottom is a modern replacement, to my eyes.

03-04-2014, 11:04 AM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	From what I can make out, the marking is "R.J.R.248.M.G.Z.30". It indicates Reserve Infantrie Regiment 248, Maschinegewehr Zug, Waffe 30 (Reserve Infantry Regiment 248, Machinegun platoon , weapon 30)

03-04-2014, 11:39 AM	#13
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Found this page which mentions the Reserve Infantry Regiment 248 in the XXVII Reserve Corp having been formed in 1914. Mentions Reserve Infantry Regiments and Reserve Jager Battalions. So on this iston, is the "RJR" a Jager or Infantry regiment? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXVII_R...ITEREFCron2002 Thanks! Jason Found this later on......http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles...arks_5_09.html At the bottom of the Page there is a list of marking achronyms and meanings.... R.J.B. = Reserver Jager Battalion R.I.R. and R.J.R = Reserve Infantry Regiment. So now I know! Thanks! Last edited by Jason60chev; 03-04-2014 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Additional information found to answer question

03-04-2014, 11:40 AM	#14
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXVII_R...ITEREFCron2002 OOPS! Here's the link....

03-04-2014, 01:12 PM	#15
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[QUOTE=alanint;251030]A great historical piece. If you are buying a Luger to shoot, this isn't the one. Although rough, it has a great history. Is there any danger of breakage if this pistol were to be fired?

03-04-2014, 04:22 PM	#17
Jason60chev User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1912 Erfurt restoration Hello....Thanks to all who have replied to my inquiries. I came across thor's (Ted's Luger restoration) service and wonder if it would be a bad idea to restore this pistol. I would be inclined to clean it as advised and leave it just the way it is, but would like other opinions from knowledgable folks. Thanks, Jason

03-04-2014, 05:21 PM	#18
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	IMHO restoration is a bad idea. First of all you would invest lots of money that you would NEVER get back. Secondly, the value of that Luger, overall, would dramatically DECREASE once it is restored. The value in that Luger is that it has been around and that it has earned each and every nick, scratch and bit of wear on it. It is a historic artifact, not a safe queen. Now I'm not knocking Thor's services, he is first rate. But I feel strongly that restoration is not appropriate in this case. Sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear. And shooting it isn't a good idea either. Not much fun, are we? dju

03-04-2014, 06:54 PM	#19
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	I forgot to say, before, that this old prize fighter of a pistol--with broken nose and cauliflower ear--ought not to be shot, simply in consideration of preserving its serial numbered parts and the value of the investment it would represent. There is a need to scratch the Luger Itch, so you now also seek a shooter rather than create one from this by shooting or refinishing...and then... you'll need a really pretty, collectible one! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-04-2014, 07:55 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	You will always remember your first~~~~~~