Accuracy Testing Suggestions?

[ChrisLL]

I have been working on developing some loads that function in my Luger, but are also fairly accurate. I know some of you folks get very good grouping, and I am just wondering if I could just get some suggestions on accuracy testing?

I have done quite a bit of shooting over the years, mostly revolver. From what I have read here, the Lugers are especially sensitive to hold, rest, etc. and I guess that has been my experience as well. I have fired some hand loads one day and have them go somewhat low, and the next week the same loads are high.

I am not resting the gun on the sandbag, and after reading GT's post a while ago I will certainly try and be more consistent in my approach. I am trying to take my shooting skills out of the equation for the time being until I settle upon some loads. So, if anyone has any suggestions or experiences that might be helpful to doing some accuracy testing with the luger I would be very interested and appreciative!

Thanks!!

Chris

[nukem556]

For precise handgun shooting, I like to use a sandbag about half full, laid in a "V" between two supports. Don't let any parts of the pistol touch the bag, just use it as a cradle for your hands. Consistent hand placement is critical, and varying your grip can easily cause the vertical dispersion you've experienced. Take notice how far up the rear of the grip you place the web of your hand everytime you lay in the pistol. One thing that a lot of shooters don't think of is to blacken your sights...it makes a huge difference. Just take a butane lighter with the (unloaded) pistol upside down,and run the very tip of the flame over the front and rear sights till you have a nice dark sooty coating. Then it's all about a clean break on the trigger and FOCUS on the front sight. The front sight must be crystal clear and the black bull of the target will appear fuzzy gray. If your eyes are young and sharp, you're good to go. Once you hit you mid 40's, 50' etc., you may not be able to focus as well on the front sight. There are apertures made that attach to your shooting glasses to correct for this.If you're cheap, just place a piece of black electrical tape on your lens with a hole punched in it a little smaller than a BB. My 50+eyes suck, but with a little care, I can still hit a hubcap at 200 yds 5 times out of 6 with my .44mag!

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ChrisLL

I have been working on developing some loads that function in my Luger, but are also fairly accurate. I know some of you folks get very good grouping, and I am just wondering if I could just get some suggestions on accuracy testing?

I have done quite a bit of shooting over the years, mostly revolver. From what I have read here, the Lugers are especially sensitive to hold, rest, etc. and I guess that has been my experience as well. I have fired some hand loads one day and have them go somewhat low, and the next week the same loads are high.

I am not resting the gun on the sandbag, and after reading GT's post a while ago I will certainly try and be more consistent in my approach. I am trying to take my shooting skills out of the equation for the time being until I settle upon some loads. So, if anyone has any suggestions or experiences that might be helpful to doing some accuracy testing with the luger I would be very interested and appreciative!

Thanks!!

Chris

Chris,

I sandbag all of my load testing and at a full 25 to 50 yards. Simply don't rest the bottom of the magazine on the sandbag, but rather, the bottom front of the frame, with a good two hand grip on the pistol, of course. Where the base of the pistol touches the bag is your vertical support, your hands, if they are also in good contact with the bag, will provide your horizontal support. With a good load, eyes that can still see, and some little practice, a good load will yield, easily a .5 inch group at 25 yards, all day long. G.T.'s experience hasn't been mine, as I've shot thousands of rounds his way, basically, without any jamming or any other problems.

Also, honestly, for me anyway, this limp wristing thing is a just another Luger fairytale. Something repeated and repeated with no real basis in fact. Sure, grap hold of the pistol, firmly, so that it doesn't jump out of your hand upon firing, but there isn't any special formula for properly holding it while firing. DWM did, in their manuals, show how they suggested you hold the pistol upon firing, but I've not found this to affect function. In fact for accurate shooting, I've found the thumbs up position much more accurate than the thumbs down position they suggest. As you like it, I presume.

The real formula for perfect function of a Luger, an element of function, naturally, being high accuracy, is proper handloading, as there is, practically, nothing out there loaded to original specs., particularly O.A.L.

When you can get hold of some powder, some blessed day, try some of the handloading suggestions I've made, as I think they will be a good place for you to start.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by nukem556

For precise handgun shooting, I like to use a sandbag about half full, laid in a "V" between two supports. Don't let any parts of the pistol touch the bag, just use it as a cradle for your hands. Consistent hand placement is critical, and varying your grip can easily cause the vertical dispersion you've experienced. Take notice how far up the rear of the grip you place the web of your hand everytime you lay in the pistol. One thing that a lot of shooters don't think of is to blacken your sights...it makes a huge difference. Just take a butane lighter with the (unloaded) pistol upside down,and run the very tip of the flame over the front and rear sights till you have a nice dark sooty coating. Then it's all about a clean break on the trigger and FOCUS on the front sight. The front sight must be crystal clear and the black bull of the target will appear fuzzy gray. If your eyes are young and sharp, you're good to go. Once you hit you mid 40's, 50' etc., you may not be able to focus as well on the front sight. There are apertures made that attach to your shooting glasses to correct for this.If you're cheap, just place a piece of black electrical tape on your lens with a hole punched in it a little smaller than a BB. My 50+eyes suck, but with a little care, I can still hit a hubcap at 200 yds 5 times out of 6 with my .44mag!

Hi,

Where do you buy these apertures, as I'm having a heck of a time trying to focus for my 100 yard rifle shooting (old fart eyes, you know).


Sieger

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Where do you buy these apertures, as I'm having a heck of a time trying to focus for my 100 yard rifle shooting (old fart eyes, you know).


Sieger

Sieger,

They may have these cheaper elsewhere, but this is the one I have. It works well and improves my sight picture a lot!

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/936...pter-optic-aid

I can't shoot for crap with open sights anymore without it. With it, I usually do ok but still learning the drill with the luger for best results. Thanks for the shooting suggestions Sieger and Nukem!

Chris

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ChrisLL

Sieger,

They may have these cheaper elsewhere, but this is the one I have. It works well and improves my sight picture a lot!

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/936...pter-optic-aid

I can't shoot for crap with open sights anymore without it. With it, I usually do ok but still learning the drill with the luger for best results. Thanks for the shooting suggestions Sieger and Nukem!

Chris

Chris,

Thanks!! I'll give it a try.


Sieger

[nukem556]

Thats a good price for a basic one.....Champions Choice sells a more expensive one with an adjustable iris for aperture size....regardless,they do help.

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by nukem556

Thats a good price for a basic one.....Champions Choice sells a more expensive one with an adjustable iris for aperture size....regardless,they do help.

Yes, they help with my aging eyes a lot. The Lyman one is very light, all plastic compounds but mine has lasted years. The suction cup does not stick quite as well as when new, but it's still ok.

I don't understand the physics of the thing, but the result is very much like cranking camera aperture way down - greatly increased depth of field. Without using it, my front sight is fuzzy and my rear sight is a double image; with it - they are both pretty clear, quite effective.

[ChrisLL]

We were discussing shooting apertures a while back, and I came across this today (not a bad idea) about making your own:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/g...made-home.html

(the step by step is towards the bottom).

[GySgt1811]

Great idea. But...a mighty big but...I'm right handed but have a left dominant eye. At 69 years old I can't focus for poop. Should I
"patch" the left dominant and shoot left handed - awkward - or scrunch my head around and shoot left eye/right handed - REALLY awkward - or patch the right non-dominant eye and shoot what feels correct?

What say you, noble experts?

Gunny John

PS. Back in the day, I shot right hand/right eye and nailed expert every time both pistol and rifle. Now, the target has to be barn sized with flashing neon arrows pointing to center of the barn door...

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by GySgt1811

Great idea. But...a mighty big but...I'm right handed but have a left dominant eye. At 69 years old I can't focus for poop. Should I
"patch" the left dominant and shoot left handed - awkward - or scrunch my head around and shoot left eye/right handed - REALLY awkward - or patch the right non-dominant eye and shoot what feels correct?

What say you, noble experts?

Gunny John

PS. Back in the day, I shot right hand/fight eye and nailed expert every time both pistol and rifle. Now, the target has to be barn sized with flashing neon arrows pointing to center of the barn door...

Gunny,

I am in the same boat, right-handed, left eye dominant. If I shoot without an aperture I shoot left-eye, so I figured it was best to keep that practice. So, I wear an aperture over my left when using one.

Not sure if you do any self-defense type shooting/practice but it sure seems you would want to shoot dominant eye then. If you had to defend yourself there would likely not be time to use an aperture, and my gut feel is the more consistency the better.


... I remember back in the day" as well. I could shoot my 44 standing and smack gallon jugs at 100 yards all day. No aperture necessary (but the 8 3/8" barrel helped). I have to admit that back then I shot probably 3x/week. I did take a few 100 yard shots the other day, same revolver, with an aperture and while not a group to be proud of they were on the paper.
A little tougher shooting the Luger though

Chris

[John Sabato]

You have trained your whole life for right handed control of your weapons.

The only way I would change that at this stage in my life would be if my right hand were disabled (like it nearly was when my right thumb was almost amputated by that oven door in November).

It will take a whole lot less effort to use your dominant left eye and shoot right handed, than it would be to train your left hand/trigger finger to respond the way you want it to. That applies to a paper punching situation. In a self defense situation, you won't be worrying about an aperature, and you will naturally reach for a weapon with your right hand. At typical handgun combat ranges (7 yards or less) your shooting is going to be instinctive, there will be no warm up exercise! Do what comes naturally...

Just my $0.02 so spend it wisely. -John S


P.S. Recommended Reading: "No Second Place Winner" by the late Bill Jordan, U.S. Border Patrol

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

You have trained your whole life for right handed control of your weapons.

The only way I would change that at this stage in my life would be if my right hand were disabled...

This is exactly my challenge...I can't even sight a rifle with my right arm/shoulder now, and can only hold a handgun for short periods right-handed...

I was able to qualify with the M9 and M16 left-handed the final years of my enlistment. Now I am annoyed that shooting left handed, all my handgun sights are off...

...But at least my dominant [left] eye is in line now...

Gunny, I hear you...There was a time when the 10-ring was obtainable...Now if I cut paper I'm happy...

[GySgt1811]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

P.S. Recommended Reading: "No Second Place Winner" by the late Bill Jordan, U.S. Border Patrol

Got It, John! It's on the top shelf in my man cave. It came from a library in Missouri and had apparently only been opened once...when ol' Bill hisself autographed it.

Good wisdom from all of you. I guess I need to realize that my Bulls eye days are over. Just shoot for fun now...

...H'mmm. Although, I'll bet I can still shoot a Mozambique Engagement across a bedroom, and sights be durned. I'll concentrate on that.

Thanks for all the thoughtful advice. Regards to all,

Gunny John

[Schutzenbob]

Over the last several months I've been reloading and shooting my 20's commercial 7.65 with excellent results. I never realized how accurate these things are. At 50 and 75 feet, I can cut out the center of the target! I'm using 90 grain Hornady hollow points. The thing that really amazes me is that this gun is fairly rough, it functions nicely but has been used with corrosive ammo and the barrel is about "NRA rotten." Regardless....this old pistol will shoot more accurately than I can hold. The trigger takes some getting use to, but is consistent, and I can stand up and shoot it well too. I'm interested in what kind of accuracy you guys are getting. I'll post some of my targets in the next few weeks.

[rhuff]

I know what you mean about rough bores. I own a 1921 DWM alphabet Luger that has a bore that resembles an old sewer pipe, yet it is scary accurate when I do my part. I find that as time goes by, it becomes harder and harder for me to do "my part". I had this Luger at the range this Thursday shooting some reloads that I have worked up, and it amazes me how accurate it is with that bore. I was only shooting 50 and 75 ft. as that is all that my indoor range has available.

[Schutzenbob]

Also.....this morning I made a chamber cast of the barrel; the groove diameter at the throat measures about .315 and at the muzzle the diameter is about .312. The Hornady bullets are .309, so I can probably use .312 diameter bullets......however, why argue with success?

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Schutzenbob

Also.....this morning I made a chamber cast of the barrel; the groove diameter at the throat measures about .315 and at the muzzle the diameter is about .312. The Hornady bullets are .309, so I can probably use .312 diameter bullets......however, why argue with success?

Schutzenbob,

I habe deine Name gern!

The original drawings for the 7.65mm did, after translation to inches, show .312 as the grove diameter. I've shot .312 to .313 lead bullets in my 7.65 Luger for decades. You might want to give the Hornady .312s a try, but make sure they chamber properly (go all of the way in). If your .309s are shooting accurately, I wouldn't argue with success either, as many "experts" always seem to enjoy doing. By the way, which powder are you loading?

I have outshot scoped rifles, at 100 yards, with my 1917 DWM 9mm, back in the late 1970s, when my eyes were still perfect.

With a good handload, at twenty five yards, over a sand bag, .5 inches is normal for a 9mm. People shooting the factory stuff, will, however, be disappointed with both accuracy and function, as much of this stuff is way to hot.

Lugers are accurate pistols!!!

Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

This is exactly my challenge...I can't even sight a rifle with my right arm/shoulder now, and can only hold a handgun for short periods right-handed...

I was able to qualify with the M9 and M16 left-handed the final years of my enlistment. Now I am annoyed that shooting left handed, all my handgun sights are off...

...But at least my dominant [left] eye is in line now...

Gunny, I hear you...There was a time when the 10-ring was obtainable...Now if I cut paper I'm happy...

I'm also right handed left eye dominant.

I shoot pistols with my right hand, align sights with my left eye. I also manage to keep both my eyes open.

With rifles I shoot right handed and close my left eye.

[Schutzenbob]

We all seem to have old and tired eyes. Recently I've been trying out different targets, different colors and shapes in an effort to improve my score. I find the black NRA pistol targets to be the worst 'cause the front sight disappears against the black background. The best target so far has been a 100 yard rifle target with a small blood-red center. I want to try some with a square center, but haven't found any yet. I think bright colored stickers in the center might improve things too.