Is It Real???

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-04-2014, 01:48 AM

I came across this Krieghoff on an auction site, and thought some of the experts here would like to take a look. Is it real???

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1029...n-luger-36115/

Zorba · 09-04-2014, 01:58 AM

I like the grips - Luger grips are usually kinda boring. These have some class!

alanint · 09-04-2014, 06:02 AM

The provenance is a little sketchy, (presentation pistols usually have a name or initials on them or the box somewhere), but I'm ready to believe that it is a period engraved, authentic Krieghoff.

Of most concern are the rather poorly fitted grips. One would expect much more precision in an offering of this calibre.

John Sabato · 09-04-2014, 12:44 PM

Take note that the auction description indicates that the source collection for this pistol is Doug Smith... He owned many very unique Lugers, as well as other pistols. I agree with alanint, that this is a genuine KH, period engraving... and the "history"... well, ... we will never know for sure, will we?

NICE gun... and I generally don't like engraved guns...

Sergio Natali · 09-04-2014, 01:48 PM

At first sight it looks "real" and basicaly I agree with Doug.

On this topic, browsing in the Net I came across this article, that perhaps would be interesting to read:

" Collecting engraved Luger Pistols or caveat emptor !"

by Klaus Leibnitz

Sergio
I

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-06-2014, 12:58 AM

He actually replied fairly quickly. His first impression is that it is a fake, but he will research its history more, to see what comes up. I hope he remembers to tell me...

drbuster · 09-07-2014, 03:49 PM

With this stratospheric asking price range, any obviously well-to-do potential buyer would be very interested in the documented history. Johnny C. Kitchens efforts here are appreciated. How does Klaus Leibnitz fit into the picture? Pardon me for my ignorance here.

Ben M. · 09-08-2014, 04:38 PM

article link.

http://www.pdfpp.com/index.php?m=Ind...17.09.04-1.pdf

drbuster · 09-09-2014, 03:48 AM

Ben, thank you profusely for the link to this well documented Klaus Leibnitz article on fakes seen recently at various gun shows and auctions. I believe that the Japanese lugers discussed had been pretty much written off as fakes, at least among the collectors I am familiar with. Herr Leibnitz does not discuss engraved Krieghoff lugers, which is a shame IMO, as several have surfaced recently demanding high prices at auction. There is no way to document their authenticity without going to the extreme metallurgical analysis mentioned in the paper (although it may be a good idea before spending $40K!). In my experience over the years, I have come to believe that two engraved HK lugers, one silver plated, the other gold plated, were presented to Herman Goering. These two have been fairly well authenticated, but after reading this article, who knows? In summation, I get the strong message that ANY luger bearing famous names or papers purporting to be proof of past ownership, must be taken with a huge degree of suspicion. Spending large sums of money for such items forces the onus or proof of authenticity on the new owner to explain in the future to any new prospective buyer (caveat emptor).

alanint · 09-09-2014, 07:55 AM

Two engraved presentation pistols I examined in Argentina, (one presented to the head of Hitler's bodyguard and the other to the Gaulither of Munich) were Mauser and Sauer pistols, respectively, which would seem to bear out what Herr Leibnitz is saying.

Ben M. · 09-09-2014, 04:54 PM

article seem to indicate the galesburg shop had the red-baron luger for sale.

and found this date listing on line.

Some combat data of Oberleutnant Lothar Freiherr von Richthofen.

L.v.R. was a cavalry officer and transferred to the Air Force in 1915
March 6 1917 : assigned to Jasta 11
March 28 1917 : 1st victory
May 7 1917 : after 24 victories in 47 days he shot down
English flying ace Captn. Albert Ball.
May 13 1917 : badly wounded and out of action 'til Sept.24
1917.
May 14 1917 : received PlM (Blue Max).
March 18 1918 : wounded again, out of action 'til July 1918.
July 19 1918 : returned to last tour of duty with Fokker
D VII.
August 12 1918 : final victory, 40 kills.
August 13 1918 : wounded for the 3rd time while shot down over
the Somme.

L.v.R. survived the war, got married to Countess Doris von Keyserling and became a commercial pilot for Deutsche Luft Reederei.
On July 4th 1922 he crashed fatally.

alanint · 09-09-2014, 07:42 PM

Lothar was the Red Baron's (Manfred) brother.

Ben M. · 09-10-2014, 12:23 PM

my mistake in previous post. should have said the red baron's brother's gun sold by galesburg shop.

the documentations sold with the pistol claim the pistol was taken when lothar was shot down in may 1918. but the author klaus indicates he was in a hospital recuperating in may. so paperwork was fony so gun is doubtful

09-04-2014, 01:48 AM	#1
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Is It Real??? I came across this Krieghoff on an auction site, and thought some of the experts here would like to take a look. Is it real??? http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1029...n-luger-36115/ __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-04-2014, 06:02 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The provenance is a little sketchy, (presentation pistols usually have a name or initials on them or the box somewhere), but I'm ready to believe that it is a period engraved, authentic Krieghoff. Of most concern are the rather poorly fitted grips. One would expect much more precision in an offering of this calibre. Last edited by alanint; 09-04-2014 at 07:39 AM.

09-04-2014, 12:44 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Take note that the auction description indicates that the source collection for this pistol is Doug Smith... He owned many very unique Lugers, as well as other pistols. I agree with alanint, that this is a genuine KH, period engraving... and the "history"... well, ... we will never know for sure, will we? NICE gun... and I generally don't like engraved guns... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-04-2014, 01:48 PM	#5
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	At first sight it looks "real" and basicaly I agree with Doug. On this topic, browsing in the Net I came across this article, that perhaps would be interesting to read: " Collecting engraved Luger Pistols or caveat emptor !" by Klaus Leibnitz Sergio I __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-06-2014, 12:58 AM	#6
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I E-Mailed Klaus Leibnitz... He actually replied fairly quickly. His first impression is that it is a fake, but he will research its history more, to see what comes up. I hope he remembers to tell me... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-04-2014, 01:58 AM	#2
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	I like the grips - Luger grips are usually kinda boring. These have some class!

09-07-2014, 03:49 PM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	With this stratospheric asking price range, any obviously well-to-do potential buyer would be very interested in the documented history. Johnny C. Kitchens efforts here are appreciated. How does Klaus Leibnitz fit into the picture? Pardon me for my ignorance here.

09-08-2014, 04:38 PM	#8
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	article link. http://www.pdfpp.com/index.php?m=Ind...17.09.04-1.pdf

09-09-2014, 03:48 AM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ben, thank you profusely for the link to this well documented Klaus Leibnitz article on fakes seen recently at various gun shows and auctions. I believe that the Japanese lugers discussed had been pretty much written off as fakes, at least among the collectors I am familiar with. Herr Leibnitz does not discuss engraved Krieghoff lugers, which is a shame IMO, as several have surfaced recently demanding high prices at auction. There is no way to document their authenticity without going to the extreme metallurgical analysis mentioned in the paper (although it may be a good idea before spending $40K!). In my experience over the years, I have come to believe that two engraved HK lugers, one silver plated, the other gold plated, were presented to Herman Goering. These two have been fairly well authenticated, but after reading this article, who knows? In summation, I get the strong message that ANY luger bearing famous names or papers purporting to be proof of past ownership, must be taken with a huge degree of suspicion. Spending large sums of money for such items forces the onus or proof of authenticity on the new owner to explain in the future to any new prospective buyer (caveat emptor).

09-09-2014, 07:55 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Two engraved presentation pistols I examined in Argentina, (one presented to the head of Hitler's bodyguard and the other to the Gaulither of Munich) were Mauser and Sauer pistols, respectively, which would seem to bear out what Herr Leibnitz is saying.

09-09-2014, 04:54 PM	#11
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	article seem to indicate the galesburg shop had the red-baron luger for sale. and found this date listing on line. Some combat data of Oberleutnant Lothar Freiherr von Richthofen. L.v.R. was a cavalry officer and transferred to the Air Force in 1915 March 6 1917 : assigned to Jasta 11 March 28 1917 : 1st victory May 7 1917 : after 24 victories in 47 days he shot down English flying ace Captn. Albert Ball. May 13 1917 : badly wounded and out of action 'til Sept.24 1917. May 14 1917 : received PlM (Blue Max). March 18 1918 : wounded again, out of action 'til July 1918. July 19 1918 : returned to last tour of duty with Fokker D VII. August 12 1918 : final victory, 40 kills. August 13 1918 : wounded for the 3rd time while shot down over the Somme. L.v.R. survived the war, got married to Countess Doris von Keyserling and became a commercial pilot for Deutsche Luft Reederei. On July 4th 1922 he crashed fatally.

09-09-2014, 07:42 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Lothar was the Red Baron's (Manfred) brother.

09-10-2014, 12:23 PM	#13
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	my mistake in previous post. should have said the red baron's brother's gun sold by galesburg shop. the documentations sold with the pistol claim the pistol was taken when lothar was shot down in may 1918. but the author klaus indicates he was in a hospital recuperating in may. so paperwork was fony so gun is doubtful