Markings on 1916/1920 DWM

1994Stoeger · 09-29-2014, 03:25 PM

Hi All:

Can anyone shed some light on the following markings on the front grip strap of a 1916/1920 DWM in 9mm?

P.H.10.37.

The markings (block lettering) appear to have been stamped/punched into the frame a long time ago; patina has long since formed uniformly over the grip strap. Nothing else discernibly different or remarkable about this luger. No other unusual proof marks; no heroic stories about it being taken from a dead soldier by a relative, etc.

As always, insight is appreciated.

Schupo · 09-30-2014, 11:35 AM

Your marking appears to be for the Polizeischule Hannover if the pistol is a police pistol. If it is a police pistol it should have a sear safety on the left side. A photograph or two would help identify it precisely.

1994Stoeger · 09-30-2014, 12:16 PM

Thanks for the insight. No sear safety present and no evidence of ever having had a sear safety installed.

Don M · 09-30-2014, 01:42 PM

This marking is from the Ordnungspolizei of Hamburg. See HWIS Chapter 17. Another 1916/1920 DWM marked P.H.10.39. is listed in Table17-5 of HWIS. This pistol has a Schmidt rather than Schiwy safety. Photos would be helpful to determine if yours also has an extremely rare Schmidt safety.

Are there any other unit markings?

May I know the serial number and suffix of your gun for my database?

1994Stoeger · 09-30-2014, 03:37 PM

Sorry, no pics right now - technical difficulties (e.g., discharged camera battery) at this end.

Since you have drawn my attention to it, the sear bar does look to be different from every other luger against which I compare it. Namely, the upward-angled portion of the sear bar is immediately adjacent to the safety bar when the safety lever is moved to "gesichert." On every other luger against which I compare it, there is a space or gap between the safety lever and the corresponding section of the sear bar.

Sounds like this may have a Schmidt safety? (yes, I know, pictures would help confirm)

Norme · 09-30-2014, 03:49 PM

Hi Andrew, It sounds like your gun is an early 1916 DWM, these had unrelieved sear bars, Later in 1916, and from then onwards, sear bars were relieved (shortened).
Regards, Norm

Don M · 10-01-2014, 11:47 AM

Please see this thread regarding the gun I referenced from HWIS: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...Schmidt+safety. Unfortunately, the photos are no longer available --- I'm not sure I would recognize a Schmidt safety if it bit me! I hope Tony S. sees this and comments.

Note that the referenced thread predates my research leading to the conclusion that these P.H. markings are from Hamburg.

Also the lack of a Schiwy safety on your gun is consistent with its issue to the Wachtbereitschaften of the Hamburg Ordnungspolizei. These were militarized police units that were exempted from the 1933 order to install sear and mag safeties.

1994Stoeger · 10-02-2014, 11:57 AM

Hi Norme:

My DWM looks to be of the unrelieved sear bar configuration (like your first pic). Is the unrelieved sear bar only associated with DWM? Will have to go find an early Erfurt....

The camera has given up the ghost.

Don M · 10-02-2014, 02:48 PM

Andrew, a brief description of the Schmidt safety is provided in the second paragraph p. 1127 of Görtz & Sturgess' The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols (Simpson edition), to wit: "[a] lengthened sear bar plunger, which engaged the front of the sear bar slot of the receiver when the side plate was removed, locking the sear....." Unfortunately, there is no illustration provided but perhaps you can inspect your pistol for this feature.

Knowing the serial number and suffix of your gun would still be helpful.

Norme · 10-02-2014, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1994Stoeger

Hi Norme:

My DWM looks to be of the unrelieved sear bar configuration (like your first pic). Is the unrelieved sear bar only associated with DWM? Will have to go find an early Erfurt....

Hi Andrew, Relieved sear bars were fitted by Erfurt at about the same time.
Regards, Norm

Tony S. · 10-02-2014, 07:07 PM

Hi all. It has been a while. Thanks Don for making me aware of this post. I am including pics of my Schmidt sear safety prototype for your review.
Take care, Tony

Don M · 10-06-2014, 01:16 PM

Tony, thank you very much for posting photos of your prototype Schmidt sear safety.

Andrew, does your gun look like this?

1994Stoeger · 10-09-2014, 05:04 PM

Sorry guys, been gone a bit. Negative...my DWM does not have the rare, elusive Schmidt safety. However, I still am a little more enlightened knowing the nature of the grip strap marking. Thanks to all.

Don M · 10-10-2014, 11:28 AM

Andrew, may I know the serial number and suffix of your pistol for my database?

09-29-2014, 03:25 PM	#1
1994Stoeger User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts	Markings on 1916/1920 DWM Hi All: Can anyone shed some light on the following markings on the front grip strap of a 1916/1920 DWM in 9mm? P.H.10.37. The markings (block lettering) appear to have been stamped/punched into the frame a long time ago; patina has long since formed uniformly over the grip strap. Nothing else discernibly different or remarkable about this luger. No other unusual proof marks; no heroic stories about it being taken from a dead soldier by a relative, etc. As always, insight is appreciated.

09-30-2014, 11:35 AM	#2
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Your marking appears to be for the Polizeischule Hannover if the pistol is a police pistol. If it is a police pistol it should have a sear safety on the left side. A photograph or two would help identify it precisely. __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

09-30-2014, 01:42 PM	#4
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	This marking is from the Ordnungspolizei of Hamburg. See HWIS Chapter 17. Another 1916/1920 DWM marked P.H.10.39. is listed in Table17-5 of HWIS. This pistol has a Schmidt rather than Schiwy safety. Photos would be helpful to determine if yours also has an extremely rare Schmidt safety. Are there any other unit markings? May I know the serial number and suffix of your gun for my database? __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-30-2014, 03:49 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Andrew, It sounds like your gun is an early 1916 DWM, these had unrelieved sear bars, Later in 1916, and from then onwards, sear bars were relieved (shortened). Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

10-01-2014, 11:47 AM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Please see this thread regarding the gun I referenced from HWIS: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...Schmidt+safety. Unfortunately, the photos are no longer available --- I'm not sure I would recognize a Schmidt safety if it bit me! I hope Tony S. sees this and comments. Note that the referenced thread predates my research leading to the conclusion that these P.H. markings are from Hamburg. Also the lack of a Schiwy safety on your gun is consistent with its issue to the Wachtbereitschaften of the Hamburg Ordnungspolizei. These were militarized police units that were exempted from the 1933 order to install sear and mag safeties. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-30-2014, 12:16 PM	#3
1994Stoeger User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts	Thanks for the insight. No sear safety present and no evidence of ever having had a sear safety installed.

09-30-2014, 03:37 PM	#5
1994Stoeger User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts	Sorry, no pics right now - technical difficulties (e.g., discharged camera battery) at this end. Since you have drawn my attention to it, the sear bar does look to be different from every other luger against which I compare it. Namely, the upward-angled portion of the sear bar is immediately adjacent to the safety bar when the safety lever is moved to "gesichert." On every other luger against which I compare it, there is a space or gap between the safety lever and the corresponding section of the sear bar. Sounds like this may have a Schmidt safety? (yes, I know, pictures would help confirm)

10-02-2014, 11:57 AM	#8
1994Stoeger User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts	Hi Norme: My DWM looks to be of the unrelieved sear bar configuration (like your first pic). Is the unrelieved sear bar only associated with DWM? Will have to go find an early Erfurt.... The camera has given up the ghost.

10-02-2014, 02:48 PM	#9
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Andrew, a brief description of the Schmidt safety is provided in the second paragraph p. 1127 of Görtz & Sturgess' The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols (Simpson edition), to wit: "[a] lengthened sear bar plunger, which engaged the front of the sear bar slot of the receiver when the side plate was removed, locking the sear....." Unfortunately, there is no illustration provided but perhaps you can inspect your pistol for this feature. Knowing the serial number and suffix of your gun would still be helpful. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-02-2014, 07:07 PM	#11
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi all. It has been a while. Thanks Don for making me aware of this post. I am including pics of my Schmidt sear safety prototype for your review. Take care, Tony Attached Thumbnails

10-06-2014, 01:16 PM	#12
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Tony, thank you very much for posting photos of your prototype Schmidt sear safety. Andrew, does your gun look like this? __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-09-2014, 05:04 PM	#13
1994Stoeger User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts	Sorry guys, been gone a bit. Negative...my DWM does not have the rare, elusive Schmidt safety. However, I still am a little more enlightened knowing the nature of the grip strap marking. Thanks to all.

10-10-2014, 11:28 AM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Andrew, may I know the serial number and suffix of your pistol for my database? __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com