Can someone help me value this Luger? (possibly my first)

[stcappelli]

Hello everyone! I was sent this direction by the nice guys over at K98Kforum.com in regards to this post:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....035#post100035

Basically, while looking for a K98 for my friend at a local gun show, I stumbled upon a 1941 Mauser (byf) P08. According to the owner, it is a vet bring-back, purchased from the widow of the GI who brought it home. It's in rough shape with a good deal of pitting on the pistol. The owner said the pitting was actually "blood-pitting", and ended up in the shape it was in from being stored without much cleaning after being reclaimed from a dead German soldat. I never heard of this before (blood pitting), so I can't speak for it's validity, or whether it adds or detracts value, but it's a cool story regardless. The owner also has the USGI leather pistol holster it was kept in, as well as a post-war magazine. It lacks the bring-back documentation. Otherwise, the bore looks good and all of the outside numbers match, with the waffenamts all remaining intact and no import marks to be found. The owner said that the interals matched too, but I haven't been able to check this out for myself (yet).

He's asking $675 obo for the pistol, and having no experience with P08's, I'm unsure if this is a good deal. I really wasn't in the market for a Luger anytime soon, because I've always know them to be $1,000+ safe queens, so the $675 price caught my eye as a potential shooter. I'd like a decent piece of history that might be worth something later, but I can also bring to the range every once in awhile in the meantime on special occasions. However, the current owner hasn't fired it before, so I'm unsure of it's mechanical condition as a shooter (although the toggle action seemed solid).

So, what do you guys think? Is this a decent price for the pistol? Should I pass and hold out for a better example? Also, I've heard through my research of someone known as Thor doing amazing things to P08s in rough shape, could this be a potential refinish canidate later on?

Regardless, any advice is appreciated. Thank you!

My best to you,
- Sam

[Edward Tinker]

Welcome to the forum. The blood pitting is a common excuse for pitting. I personally doubt it. Wet, perhaps blood, but more likely just wet and left a long time IMHO.

A byf is nice and price is a shooter price. The holster could be worth $50 or $200, depending on if original or modified. Is there a tool inside?

Ed

[alanint]

Your pistol is likely not a GI bring back, but a Russian capture, (see the bullseye grips) that was dipped blued and later reissued, mostly to East German military and police. There should be a small import mark somewhere. Are there any "X"s stamped on it anywhere?
Even in it's poor condition it is worth approximately what the seller is asking. Try to get it for $600 and you will always recoup your investment.

Welcome to the forum!

[mrerick]

Check the magazine, and ensure it's a "FXO" plastic base magazine. If it is stamped with numbers like "2/1001" the magazine is post war. If it's a "FXO" magazine or has an E/122 or E/37 proof it is valuable in itself ($175).

The most likely cause of the pitting is storage in a holster in a humid environment over many years.

Clearly, I can't help you evaluate it's mechanical condition. These were hand fitted at the factory, so all matching parts and good internal appearance is a plus for a shooter.

I'd buy it at the offered price.

Marc

[stcappelli]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Welcome to the forum. The blood pitting is a common excuse for pitting. I personally doubt it. Wet, perhaps blood, but more likely just wet and left a long time IMHO.

A byf is nice and price is a shooter price. The holster could be worth $50 or $200, depending on if original or modified. Is there a tool inside?

Ed

As far as I know, there isn't a take down tool included with this Luger, but the holster seems original. I'll definitely look into that!

Your pistol is likely not a GI bring back, but a Russian capture, (see the bullseye grips) that was dipped blued and later reissued, mostly to East German military and police. There should be a small import mark somewhere. Are there any "X"s stamped on it anywhere?
Even in it's poor condition it is worth approximately what the seller is asking. Try to get it for $600 and you will always recoup your investment.

Welcome to the forum!

That would make sense, someone in the K98K forum mentioned that the grips appear to be replacements. From what I could tell, there wasn't any import marks, nor did I see the Russian rebuild stamp anywhere. Is there anywhere specific I should check? Could this be an example early import (with no stamp) that was spared the Russian X stamp? I know of some early import Russian Capture K98's that match that description.

Check the magazine, and ensure it's a "FXO" plastic base magazine. If it is stamped with numbers like "2/1001" the magazine is post war. If it's a "FXO" magazine or has an E/122 or E/37 proof it is valuable in itself ($175).

The most likely cause of the pitting is storage in a holster in a humid environment over many years.

Clearly, I can't help you evaluate it's mechanical condition. These were hand fitted at the factory, so all matching parts and good internal appearance is a plus for a shooter.

I'd buy it at the offered price.

Marc

I'll definitely take a look at the magazine next chance I get. Your explanation of the pitting echoes what I've been researching and what others have told me, and makes sense.

Thanks for your help and the warm welcome everyone, I really appreciate it! I definitely feel much more informed now.

My best to you,
- Sam

[stcappelli]

Also, is it worth the money to try to clean up/possibly refinish? Or is it better left alone?

My best to you,
-Sam

[kubel]

If it ends up being a Russian rework, you couldn't do any harm by refinishing it to your standards, particularly if you're going to use it as a shooter. Just make sure you have it restored by someone familiar with Lugers (there are a couple guys on this site). Otherwise, most gunsmiths have a tendency to over-buff and over-finish Lugers which will degrade markings and tooling marks, subsequently degrading the pistol's value.

[Zorba]

With the huge caveat that I know about .00001% of what several of these guys here do, I'll just add that it it goes bang when you pull the trigger, its worth $675 - and maybe even if it doesn't!

[alvin]

For this shape, it better goes "bang" when you pull the trigger. Otherwise, even if it worth $675 or a little bit more on the market, probably better keep $675 IMO ... that's cash and cash does not have any liquidity issue. Of course, it does not bang when trigger is pulled is much better than it bangs without pulling the trigger Can work safely, is the first consideration.

[Edit] If no plan to shoot it, then, ignore it working condition.

[stcappelli]

I've spoken with the seller, and will meet up with him sometime this weekend to see if we can broker a deal. He's holding firm with his price and his story ($675, all-original USGI bring-back/non-import), but from what I'm getting from you guys it's still a nice deal for a shooter P08 anyways. Hopefully I can gather up a little more detail regarding this pistols past once I see it in person again. Is there anything in particular I should be looking for on this pistol? Also, are there any common places for import marks/Russian X stamps to hide that I should check out?

I really can't thank everyone enough for their help, quite an awesome community you guys got here. It's a pleasure learning from you guys!

My best to you,

- Sam

[alanint]

Hi Sam,

Import mark is usually, but not always, under the barrel. I have also seem them in or around the frame rails. Look for scrub marks or dishing in case someone tried to remove the mark. We still don't know what the toggle marks are , (BYF? 42? S/42?).

If you watch a dissasembly video beforehand on youtube, you should be able to take it apart and see if internals, (firing pin, main toggle axle, holdopen, etc. ) match the rest of the gun.

In general, the gun is worth the asking price, but I would still find reasons to get it down to $600, so that you can have one of the guys here refinish it for you, (don't send it to the corner gunsmith. Most don't understand Lugers and will only buff it way too much and blue with little care).
Russian "X"s are usually found around serail numbers. Often small parts that don't match have the numbers "stippled" out with a pin punch.

Good luck with the purchase!

[stcappelli]

Originally Posted by alanint

Hi Sam,

Import mark is usually, but not always, under the barrel. I have also seem them in or around the frame rails. Look for scrub marks or dishing in case someone tried to remove the mark. We still don't know what the toggle marks are , (BYF? 42? S/42?).

If you watch a dissasembly video beforehand on youtube, you should be able to take it apart and see if internals, (firing pin, main toggle axle, holdopen, etc. ) match the rest of the gun.

In general, the gun is worth the asking price, but I would still find reasons to get it down to $600, so that you can have one of the guys here refinish it for you, (don't send it to the corner gunsmith. Most don't understand Lugers and will only buff it way too much and blue with little care).
Russian "X"s are usually found around serail numbers. Often small parts that don't match have the numbers "stippled" out with a pin punch.

Good luck with the purchase!

I've attached a few more pictures. The toggle mark appears to be "byf", with "41" closer to the barrel. When I checked it on in person, I didn't see any grindings, out of place wear (besides the pitting), or the anything to indicate that the import mark was removed, but I will take a more closer look (and watch for any peened or removed markings) when I check it out again in person tomorrow as I try to work out a deal.

On one of the pictures, there appears to be a X shape. I didn't notice this when I had originally saw it, and the pictures are too fuzzy for me to be sure, but could this be a rebuild stamp or is it another German marking of some sort?

Lastly - and I may be getting ahead of myself here - do you have any recommendations for possible refinishers to contact who reside on this forum? Do you have a rough idea of how much it may cost?

Again, thank you so much for your help.

My best to you,
- Sam

[DavidJayUden]

It appears to me that the circled X is the suffix of the serial number. It should be there. The X's that Alan refers to are usually stamped directly over the numbers, usually on the left side above the takedown plate.
On a related note, that bare spot just to the side of the 5 on the front numbers concerns me. Is it simply bare metal or is there evidence of damage, cracking or repair?
Regarding refinishing, I believe that it will be cost prohibitive on this gun. Filling and resurfacing pitted areas is a time consuming process, and time equals money. What makes this gun attractive is simply the purchase price. Shoot it as-is and don't get spendy, or buy this one and enjoy it while you hunt for a better oine. If you want a nicer gun pass on this one and buy what you want. Don't throw money into a rat hole.
My $.02
dju

[ithacaartist]

Interesting advice, David. I can see that improving a gun above its market value is a good way to thwart entry-level and shooter level people who want a Luger. I think it would be productive, in a way, to re-sell (if you can bring yourself to do that!)this one for about what you paid for it after you find a better one. This maintains an example of this level of gun, rather than pricing it into the stratosphere by restoring or refinishing.

[Patronen]

A lot of good advice given already. If your looking for a shooter luger the price is decent. Shoot it and try not to put another dime into it except for cleaning supplies and ammo. With regards to the story behind it. This seems to be one of the few cases the story is NOT inflating the price, but buy the gun not the story as the old saying goes.

[stcappelli]

Hey everyone,

I went ahead and picked up the P08 yesterday. I talked him down to $655, which I'm content with (the magazine turns out to be an original FXO 37 proof magazine as mrerick mentioned previously, in pretty good shape with most of the original finish, a plastic base and a strong spring, although there is some wear and a chipped plastic lip on the left side of the magazine). The owner really stuck to the story of this Luger being a vet-bring back, so he was pretty firm on the cost, but all things considered I feel it was a very fair deal.

After field stripping and a closer, inspection, the finish isn't as bad as I originally had thought, and it turns out the leather USGI holster is in worse shape than the Luger. The inside looks great and is very clean, and on a related note; all the numbers appear to match, from the firing pin to the toggle train to the barrel, aside from the post-war grips. In addition, I couldn't find any peened markings, build stamps or import marks on the pistol, nor any attempts to hide any. I picked up some Winchester white-box 9mm rounds earlier today, hoping to get to the range soon to see how she shoots. I'll take some pictures when I break her down for cleaning and post em on here so everyone interested can get a better look.

Thanks again for everyone's help, I've learned a great deal and hope to learn more, as I've been certainly bitten by the Luger-bug...

[alanint]

It may be an example of the earliest captures, where very little was done to alter the guns prior to shipping. Or, it may actually be a GI capture, who messed with it later, in an effort to make it look better.

In any event, a good buy!!

[kubel]

Yep, a decent buy. I would spend a little time cleaning it up and maybe putting some cold blue on the bare metal parts to keep it from deteriorating any further. You can decide later if you want to restore it or upgrade.