First Luger

Snipesrule · 04-02-2015, 11:35 PM

Glad to to be member of a reputable forum!

I bought my first and only Luger from a mom and pop gun and odd/end store about 13 years ago. I have tried to to ID it in the past but have never been able to nail down the exact history. I spoke to Ralph Shattuck when I bought it and recommended/sold me "Lugers at Random" which all my knowledge about this pistol comes from. Ralph was a VERY NICE man...heard I was Active Duty and thanked me for my service and gave me a free 1st edition of his book. I was very sad to hear of his passing

Here is what I know and explain from the attached picture.

-The pistol is a DWM Luger with all matching serial number (6251) sans the mag.

-Based on a proof on the right-side of the receiver, it passed the Erfuhrt at some point.

-Based on the Waffen Amt eagle and the eagle 63 it was a military Mauser Pistol as well.

-There are two Nitro marks (N with crown) which Lugers at Random tells me it is a commercial production after 1920- I found two marks on the receiver and on the extractor.

-S/42 is marked on the bottom of the barrel, along with "8, 82," no idea what that means

-There is a seagull type proof on the front trigger guard - no clue what that means.

-No markings on the fron/back straps; there is an appendage of sorts on the back strap that looks like it would attach to a broom handle stock.

I would like to any.all information about this pistol to include what service it might have belonged to.

I WILL NEVER sell this pistol; my kids and grandkids will inherit this, but am curious as to the value.

Thanks!

Roger

SteveM · 04-03-2015, 07:58 AM

Welcome to the forum. We are going to need better pics, taking them outside in indirect sunlight on the macro setting usually works well.

Quiet1 · 04-03-2015, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snipesrule

. . . . . marked on the bottom of the barrel, along with "8, 82," no idea what that means . . . . . . . .

The 8,82 (mm) is the bore diameter measurement before rifling. (Or, in other words, the measurement between the lands.)

.

mrerick · 04-03-2015, 01:01 PM

Hi Roger, and welcome to the forum.

Your Luger is made up of a mix of parts from different pistols and different eras.

It probably started out as a commercial DWM Luger, but I can't tell more without detailed photos of the markings. I can't tell if the rear of the frame ears is straight or has the Mauser Hump. If it's straight, it could be a DWM frame (Get internal factory inspector markings photographed) or a Mauser frame. If it has the hump, it's a Mauser frame from 1938-1940.

The S/42 on the barrel indicates it was an armorer's part that was sourced from Mauser sometime after 1935. The 8,82 is a bore measurement in mm as quiet1 mentioned above.

Crown/N marks were commercial markings in Weimar and Imperial Germany depending on the crown used. They may also be marks from rework after WW-II by the Russians and East Germans.

We really need good sharp photos of the marks in detail. You need to shoot them with a digital camera using a tripod in natural shaded light. Use the self timer and the closeup setting until you get some in sharp focus.

Post them here individually with about 1024 pixels horizontal resolution.

All Erfurt receivers should be date marked above the chamber. Is your Luger blank there?

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 01:32 PM

mrerick and Quiet 1,

First and foremost, than you very much for all the information. I will get better pictures.

-My heart skipped a beat when I read that my parts were a mix of different parts from different eras? Please explain to me how this can be if all the parts have the same serial numbers (sans the mag), even just the last two digits on the smaller parts? I thought all parts having the same serial numbers equaled an original/complete pistol. Is this correct or am I mistaken? Does the fact that the pistol is created from a mix bag of parts detract form the originality of the pistol?

-The frame ears have the bump you describe.

-There is no date that I can see above the chamber. What does this mean? I will look again closely to make sure.

-8,82mm for the bore measurement. Stupid question...why didn't they just mark it 9mm if that 's the round that the pistol fires?

Thanks again!

Roger

alanint · 04-03-2015, 01:46 PM

It would not have been terribly hard for someone with access to an arsenal full of parts to come up with matching numbers back then. It appears that the entire lower frame is from one pistol, (Mauser) and the upper receiver and toggle train from another, (DWM, or Erfurt with a DWM toggle train). The Barrel, as mentioned, is a Mauser made arsenal replacement barrel. There is no chamber date that I can see, so the upper was a commercial offering in .30 Cal. Luger and was converted to 9mm via the barrel replacement.
Although the numbers match, this does detract significantly from the pistol's collector value.

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

It would not have been terribly hard for someone with access to an arsenal full of parts to come up with matching numbers back then. It appears that the entire lower frame is from one pistol, (Mauser) and the upper receiver and toggle train from another, (DWM, or Erfurt with a DWM toggle train). The Barrel, as mentioned, is a Mauser made arsenal replacement barrel. There is no chamber date that I can see, so the upper was a commercial offering in .30 Cal. Luger and was converted to 9mm via the barrel replacement.
Although the numbers match, this does detract significantly from the pistol's collector value.

Thank you for the insight! Why do you think they went through the trouble of converting from 30cal to 9mm? Was it a common war-time practice to mix parts?

Thanks!

Roger

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 10:56 PM

New pictures as requested. My wife and I took these pictures with her Cannon SLR.

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 10:58 PM

Right

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 10:59 PM

Above

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 11:04 PM

Trigger guard and front receiver bottom base of barrel

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 11:09 PM

Right front receiver

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 11:11 PM

Left front receiver

Snipesrule · 04-03-2015, 11:13 PM

Last picture - above chamber, no date.

Edward Tinker · 04-03-2015, 11:51 PM

The serial number appears to be from the time period of the late 1920's (an r suffix)

The crown N on the left of the receiver is a commercial marking - so I would say at first that it started as a commercial, then went into the army or police (likely army). The markings on the right look like rework markings (HZA markings are a Weimar depot), but are not close enough. I do not think that is an Erfurt proof on the far right. For one reason that if cleaned up from WW1, I doubt they would leave just the proof.

It is NOT a Mauser bump on the rear (see the FAQ)

Keep in mind that many, many WW1 guns were cleaned up (most markings taken off) and resold or reworked.
.

Snipesrule · 04-04-2015, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The serial number appears to be from the time period of the late 1920's (an r suffix)

The crown N on the left of the receiver is a commercial marking - so I would say at first that it started as a commercial, then went into the army or police (likely army). The markings on the right look like rework markings (HZA markings are a Weimar depot), but are not close enough. I do not think that is an Erfurt proof on the far right. For one reason that if cleaned up from WW1, I doubt they would leave just the proof.

It is NOT a Mauser bump on the rear (see the FAQ)

Keep in mind that many, many WW1 guns were cleaned up (most markings taken off) and resold or reworked.
.

Mr. Tinker, thank you sir very much for you weighing in. It is fascinating that the pistol startout as a commercial pistol before be absorbed by the army or police. Thanks for correcting me about the pistol not having a Mauser bump.

Now that I have clearer pictures posted, do you thing the gun is original or a parts gun as stated in previous posts?

The pistol really seem to have a story...I'm glad it's starting to talk

alanint · 04-04-2015, 05:02 AM

With no Mauser hump to muddle things, the lower frame would indeed match the balance of the pistol. The font looks consistent throughout the pistol, (with the barrel being a close approximation).
My guess would be an Alphabet Commercial, rebarrelled to 9mm at a depot for Weimar government service. As such, the pistol is in a sense "correct", although many purist collectors would rate the gun a bit lower than an untouched, factory original pistol.

Still, I find guns with a decipherable history of great interest.

Snipesrule · 04-05-2015, 05:57 PM

alanint, Thanks for the feedback! I agree that pistols with disipherable history are of great interest. What is an Alphabet Commercial?

Edward Tinker · 04-05-2015, 07:58 PM

I agree that Alan's comments seem right to me

Snipesrule · 04-05-2015, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I agree that Alan's comments seem right to me

Mr. Tinker,

Yes sir...thanks...his comments seem spot on. What is an "Alphabet Commercial?"

V/R,

Roger

04-02-2015, 11:35 PM	#1
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	First Luger Glad to to be member of a reputable forum! I bought my first and only Luger from a mom and pop gun and odd/end store about 13 years ago. I have tried to to ID it in the past but have never been able to nail down the exact history. I spoke to Ralph Shattuck when I bought it and recommended/sold me "Lugers at Random" which all my knowledge about this pistol comes from. Ralph was a VERY NICE man...heard I was Active Duty and thanked me for my service and gave me a free 1st edition of his book. I was very sad to hear of his passing Here is what I know and explain from the attached picture. -The pistol is a DWM Luger with all matching serial number (6251) sans the mag. -Based on a proof on the right-side of the receiver, it passed the Erfuhrt at some point. -Based on the Waffen Amt eagle and the eagle 63 it was a military Mauser Pistol as well. -There are two Nitro marks (N with crown) which Lugers at Random tells me it is a commercial production after 1920- I found two marks on the receiver and on the extractor. -S/42 is marked on the bottom of the barrel, along with "8, 82," no idea what that means -There is a seagull type proof on the front trigger guard - no clue what that means. -No markings on the fron/back straps; there is an appendage of sorts on the back strap that looks like it would attach to a broom handle stock. I would like to any.all information about this pistol to include what service it might have belonged to. I WILL NEVER sell this pistol; my kids and grandkids will inherit this, but am curious as to the value. Thanks! Roger Attached Images

04-03-2015, 01:01 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Roger, and welcome to the forum. Your Luger is made up of a mix of parts from different pistols and different eras. It probably started out as a commercial DWM Luger, but I can't tell more without detailed photos of the markings. I can't tell if the rear of the frame ears is straight or has the Mauser Hump. If it's straight, it could be a DWM frame (Get internal factory inspector markings photographed) or a Mauser frame. If it has the hump, it's a Mauser frame from 1938-1940. The S/42 on the barrel indicates it was an armorer's part that was sourced from Mauser sometime after 1935. The 8,82 is a bore measurement in mm as quiet1 mentioned above. Crown/N marks were commercial markings in Weimar and Imperial Germany depending on the crown used. They may also be marks from rework after WW-II by the Russians and East Germans. We really need good sharp photos of the marks in detail. You need to shoot them with a digital camera using a tripod in natural shaded light. Use the self timer and the closeup setting until you get some in sharp focus. Post them here individually with about 1024 pixels horizontal resolution. All Erfurt receivers should be date marked above the chamber. Is your Luger blank there? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-03-2015, 10:56 PM	#8
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New pictures as requested. My wife and I took these pictures with her Cannon SLR. Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 10:58 PM	#9
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Right Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 10:59 PM	#10
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Above Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 07:58 AM	#2
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Welcome to the forum. We are going to need better pics, taking them outside in indirect sunlight on the macro setting usually works well.

04-03-2015, 01:32 PM	#5
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	mrerick and Quiet 1, First and foremost, than you very much for all the information. I will get better pictures. -My heart skipped a beat when I read that my parts were a mix of different parts from different eras? Please explain to me how this can be if all the parts have the same serial numbers (sans the mag), even just the last two digits on the smaller parts? I thought all parts having the same serial numbers equaled an original/complete pistol. Is this correct or am I mistaken? Does the fact that the pistol is created from a mix bag of parts detract form the originality of the pistol? -The frame ears have the bump you describe. -There is no date that I can see above the chamber. What does this mean? I will look again closely to make sure. -8,82mm for the bore measurement. Stupid question...why didn't they just mark it 9mm if that 's the round that the pistol fires? Thanks again! Roger

04-03-2015, 01:46 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It would not have been terribly hard for someone with access to an arsenal full of parts to come up with matching numbers back then. It appears that the entire lower frame is from one pistol, (Mauser) and the upper receiver and toggle train from another, (DWM, or Erfurt with a DWM toggle train). The Barrel, as mentioned, is a Mauser made arsenal replacement barrel. There is no chamber date that I can see, so the upper was a commercial offering in .30 Cal. Luger and was converted to 9mm via the barrel replacement. Although the numbers match, this does detract significantly from the pistol's collector value.

04-03-2015, 11:04 PM	#11
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Trigger guard and front receiver bottom base of barrel Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 11:09 PM	#12
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Right front receiver Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 11:11 PM	#13
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Left front receiver Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 11:13 PM	#14
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Last picture - above chamber, no date. Attached Thumbnails

04-03-2015, 11:51 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	The serial number appears to be from the time period of the late 1920's (an r suffix) The crown N on the left of the receiver is a commercial marking - so I would say at first that it started as a commercial, then went into the army or police (likely army). The markings on the right look like rework markings (HZA markings are a Weimar depot), but are not close enough. I do not think that is an Erfurt proof on the far right. For one reason that if cleaned up from WW1, I doubt they would leave just the proof. It is NOT a Mauser bump on the rear (see the FAQ) Keep in mind that many, many WW1 guns were cleaned up (most markings taken off) and resold or reworked. . __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-04-2015, 05:02 AM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	With no Mauser hump to muddle things, the lower frame would indeed match the balance of the pistol. The font looks consistent throughout the pistol, (with the barrel being a close approximation). My guess would be an Alphabet Commercial, rebarrelled to 9mm at a depot for Weimar government service. As such, the pistol is in a sense "correct", although many purist collectors would rate the gun a bit lower than an untouched, factory original pistol. Still, I find guns with a decipherable history of great interest. Last edited by alanint; 04-06-2015 at 03:13 PM.

04-05-2015, 05:57 PM	#18
Snipesrule User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	alanint, Thanks for the feedback! I agree that pistols with disipherable history are of great interest. What is an Alphabet Commercial?

04-05-2015, 07:58 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I agree that Alan's comments seem right to me