1920 Carbine, Less Forearm

[Anfanger]

Here is a "puzzelah" has Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers used to say: Could this be a 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm?
This is from my recently acquired collection.
Referencing "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon, and "Luger Variations" by Jones, and trying to find more guidance here on the forum and on Mr. Still's forum, please help with further insight about the attributes of this Luger.
I've had a discussion with Jerry B., and he's seen these photos, and thought perhaps it was a "Long Barreled Luger", but the ramp sight and 3-4 position rear sight have us leaning towards the "1920 Carbine, Less Forearm" as described in Jones' book, on pg. 159. Jones also says this variation is often called a "Parts Carbine".
Numbers match, except for the side plate, which is "91", and the barrel is stamped "11" in the space between the metal of the rear sight on the underside of the barrel.
Barrel length is 11.93", which is within the range listed in Jones.
Thanks again to all who make this forum such a wonderful resource.
I look forward to reading your comments.
(I know is has the chunk out of the grip - I didn't do that!)

[Anfanger]

Doesn't that mismatch side plate just jump out at you in the second photo? The lighting really makes the color/tone pop.

[CAP Black]

I am puzzled by the shot of the underside in the next to last photo. An extra part shows up. That might be the clue as to what it is.
Jack

[Anfanger]

Sorry, i dont see an extra part. Where do you see it? Use something as a reference point and describe location of extra part from the reference point, say, the trigger guard.
Thank you.
~John

[lugerholsterrepair]

The pistol is out of battery, the barrel is moved off the slide. What you see is the locking lug.

[Anfanger]

Yes Jerry. I did that to get a clear image of the witness mark, and show that there were no other stamps/marks in that area.
Thank you.

[Dwight Gruber]

Alphabet Commercial sn 1213m. The barrel has been replaced with what appears to be the barrel from P08 carbine (formerly 1920 carbine) sn 11.

--Dwight

[cirelaw]

I remember this long one in 'Lugers At Random' long ago!! Eric

[aldo35]

This last picture show a different rear sight than anfngers. I haven't seen a sight like that before and when I viewed the picture showing what appeared to be a lug for a forearm the sight base looked to me like it might be sleeved onto the barrel.

Aldo35

[Lugerdoc]

A, I agree that your pistol is not a Factory made Carbine, or it would have the forarm bar soldered to the front of the frame and I doubt the it is a Factory or imported made "long barrel" or it would have an LPO8 type tangent rear sight as shown above. Interesting hi-bred with parts from a couple of lugers. TH

[cirelaw]

For comparison~

[sheepherder]

I've never seen pics or real thing in person but it is interesting that this carbine (and presumably others) use the split rear sight base. Mauser made their rifle rear sights single piece, no split. Also soldered on.

No point to be made here; just interesting.

I had noticed Eugen's rear sight base on Ed's carbine was split also, and I had wondered if that was a Eugene-specific modification...

[ithacaartist]

As I understand it, the front tang added to the frame was essential to the functioning of the carbine configuration, in that an extra recoil spring interacted with the tang to help get the massive weight of the barrel back into battery. This, in addition to carbine-specific ammo loaded with a bit of extra oomph to energize a cycle. In the pic posted above from Lugers at Random, someone has drawn in a couple of annotation arrows, each pointing to the now superfluous notched sight on the rear toggle link. This makes me think that the Luger in the pic was a standard configuration pistol with a carbine barrel clomped on. I'm aware that Stoeger re-barreled pistols to similar lengths, without the tang setup. The bottom, rear of the barrel in the book, however, looks like it does not have the slot cut to accommodate the tang, so I think it was one of the rebarreled-to-order guns addressed on the page. How did those manage to function--without the extra spring, etc.?

[cirelaw]

1959

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

In the pic posted above from Lugers at Random, someone has drawn in a couple of annotation arrows, each pointing to the now superfluous notched sight on the rear toggle link. This makes me think that the Luger in the pic was a standard configuration pistol with a carbine barrel clomped on.

Eric must have added those marks himself, as my LAR book does not have them.

Eric's Luger carbine has both barrel and toggle rear sights.

[cirelaw]

Yes a few years back there was some discussion regarding my rear notch. I downloaded an article on the carbines. This was the Weimer period and DWM put together as many as the could using left over parts. The gun is now 100% matching including the beautiful stock. It has all the proof inspections and the 'Germany' marking. A perfect carbine at that time utilizing parts that survived! Eric

[cirelaw]

The Article and pertinent info!!http://www.landofborchardt.com/lugerads.html

[cirelaw]

Here is a 1920 Carbine for sale with parts http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=24104

[CAP Black]

Reference was made to "Ed's Carbine".Did I miss something regarding that item?
Jack

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by CAP Black

Reference was made to "Ed's Carbine".Did I miss something regarding that item?
Jack

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=31547