Interesting Artillery on GA.com

DavidJayUden · 11-06-2015, 08:39 AM

Have a look at this one, and I'll be interested in hearing from the experts.
I'm not trying to pick on Mr. Luger. But my initial concerns are that it is a 1917 Erfurt artillery(?), a very thin and questionable set of leather, and I can't see if it is relieved for the rear sight. Your thoughts?

https://www.gunsamerica.com//9210460...AZINE.htm?wl=1

John Sabato · 11-06-2015, 09:54 AM

Poorly reproduced holster and mag pouch---not original... sorry-- the seller doesn't know what he is talking about. The magazine is questionable as to the numbering. The pistol has been reblued. $1100 tops... not $3500.

sheepherder · 11-06-2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

and I can't see if it is relieved for the rear sight.

I can't tell either [pic attached] but they are fine-tune sights F&R...

Also, the page in Jones is for a 1914 Erfurt artillery. I don't think you can use a 1914 anything to verify a 1917...

Nice big pics, BTW...2928 x 1707...He ain't hidin' nuthin'...

Jones had a comment on Erfurts being poorly finished...and looking at this toggle, he wasn't foolin'...

(I actually have trouble believing the toggle is machined, looks filed to me)...

George Anderson · 11-06-2015, 10:15 AM

The leather is all fake as is the magazine. The pistol is a mixed parts gun; 1917 DWM receiver with Erfurt toggle train. Erfurt made LP08s in 1914 ONLY.

DonVoigt · 11-06-2015, 10:49 AM

I suppose it could have started as a "normal" 1917 Erfurt, and grew the barrel at a later date. Erfurt proofs on the receiver, but DWM on the bbl/rear sight base. Strange that the all important picture of the bottom of the barrel markings is missing. Condition of the rear sight leaf does not go with the rest of the piece. Someone either re-numbered or got lucky in finding the rear sight base with a "26" though.

Holster looks just like my indian reproduction, just aged a little, the "square" shape to the mag pouch is identical, and the square top strap is carefully tucked under. The straps also have the metal plate attached, and as someone said are quite thin.

He likely told the truth that this was the first 1917 Erfurt he had seen!

DavidJayUden · 11-06-2015, 11:44 AM

Thank you all. You have confirmed my suspicions.
dju

alanint · 11-06-2015, 03:00 PM

A 1917 Erfurt toggle stamp would have the broken crown lobe by then, wouldn't it? The stamp looks amazingly crisp compared to overall toggle condition and the small cross on the top of the crown migrating into the radius cut on the edge of the link all look either bogus or "freshened" to me.

DonVoigt · 11-06-2015, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

A 1917 Erfurt toggle stamp would have the broken crown lobe by then, wouldn't it? The stamp looks amazingly crisp compared to overall toggle condition and the small cross on the top of the crown migrating into the radius cut on the edge of the link all look either bogus or "freshened" to me.

Is it a fact that Erfurt only had one toggle crown stamp?
I would have thought for their volume of production they would have multiple stamping stations.

I guess another way to ask is: do all late Erfurt examples have a broken crown?

That said the stamp is quite heavy and clear, maybe a replacement for the broken crown?

John Sabato · 11-06-2015, 04:13 PM

This is an early ERFURT toggle because the crown is complete. It is my belief that they never replaced the stamp after it broke... and all late toggles have the broken edge on the top right of the crown. If you have information which disproves my hypothesis, please post it.

Sergio Natali · 11-07-2015, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

This is an early ERFURT toggle because the crown is complete. It is my belief that they never replaced the stamp after it broke... and all late toggles have the broken edge on the top right of the crown. If you have information which disproves my hypothesis, please post it.

I think you must be right, in fact I enclose a picture of my Erfurt.

sheepherder · 11-07-2015, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I think you must be right, in fact I enclose a picture of my Erfurt.

Sergio, I can't make out your chamber date - Is it 1918???

So it's the extreme right side of the crown that has the chipped/broken die imprint???

Is there any evidence of what year this occurred???

Sergio, your toggle looks orders of magnitude better than the one on GA. Doug's comment on the stamp impinging on the radius is well taken. I think someone has a nice new Erfurt stamp. But they need a finer tooth file.

Edit: The GA Erfurt stamp is not centered lengthwise either.

Sergio Natali · 11-07-2015, 09:53 AM

Richard
Yes it is, 1918 doubledate.
I've got no evidence of when that exactly happened mine is # 2904

wlyon · 11-07-2015, 10:44 AM

I have an all matching 1916 Erfurt with the right side broken mark. I had a 1917 Erfurt and it was even more pronounced. . Bill

cirelaw · 11-07-2015, 11:03 AM

Who actually writes the description? Does the broker actually review it before posting and allowing such inaccuracies?

wlyon · 11-07-2015, 11:41 AM

Richard: In Jan's Central book he shows: 1914 with a broken die., A 1916 without a broken die, a 1917 and 1918 with the break. So ????? Bill

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2015, 11:41 AM

The seller/poster controls the content of on-line ads.
dju

sheepherder · 11-07-2015, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlyon

Richard: In Jan's Central book he shows: 1914 with a broken die., A 1916 without a broken die, a 1917 and 1918 with the break. So ????? Bill

And the "1914" Jones Erfurt LP-08 referenced by the seller shows an unbroken crown...But it is centered both ways...

And the chamber date on the Jones "1914" LP-08 is 1917...

Ron Wood · 11-07-2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

The leather is all fake as is the magazine. The pistol is a mixed parts gun; 1917 DWM receiver with Erfurt toggle train. Erfurt made LP08s in 1914 ONLY.

George,
I magnified the receiver image and I think the inspector marks and the firing proof are Erfurt. So it looks to me like a DWM barrel added to a 1917 Erfurt.

sheepherder · 11-07-2015, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

George,
I magnified the receiver image and I think the inspector marks and the firing proof are Erfurt. So it looks to me like a DWM barrel added to a 1917 Erfurt.

Ron, what do you & George (and others) think about the toggle??? Were there Erfurts that crudely machined/fabricated???

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2015, 01:37 PM

While I'm neither Ron nor George, I've never seen any German Luger part as rough as that toggle link. It gives new meaning to "wartime expedience".
dju

11-06-2015, 08:39 AM	#1
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Interesting Artillery on GA.com Have a look at this one, and I'll be interested in hearing from the experts. I'm not trying to pick on Mr. Luger. But my initial concerns are that it is a 1917 Erfurt artillery(?), a very thin and questionable set of leather, and I can't see if it is relieved for the rear sight. Your thoughts? https://www.gunsamerica.com//9210460...AZINE.htm?wl=1

11-06-2015, 09:54 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Poorly reproduced holster and mag pouch---not original... sorry-- the seller doesn't know what he is talking about. The magazine is questionable as to the numbering. The pistol has been reblued. $1100 tops... not $3500. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2015, 04:13 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	This is an early ERFURT toggle because the crown is complete. It is my belief that they never replaced the stamp after it broke... and all late toggles have the broken edge on the top right of the crown. If you have information which disproves my hypothesis, please post it. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-07-2015, 09:53 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Richard Yes it is, 1918 doubledate. I've got no evidence of when that exactly happened mine is # 2904 __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

11-07-2015, 10:44 AM	#13
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	I have an all matching 1916 Erfurt with the right side broken mark. I had a 1917 Erfurt and it was even more pronounced. . Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-06-2015, 10:15 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	The leather is all fake as is the magazine. The pistol is a mixed parts gun; 1917 DWM receiver with Erfurt toggle train. Erfurt made LP08s in 1914 ONLY.

11-06-2015, 10:49 AM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I suppose it could have started as a "normal" 1917 Erfurt, and grew the barrel at a later date. Erfurt proofs on the receiver, but DWM on the bbl/rear sight base. Strange that the all important picture of the bottom of the barrel markings is missing. Condition of the rear sight leaf does not go with the rest of the piece. Someone either re-numbered or got lucky in finding the rear sight base with a "26" though. Holster looks just like my indian reproduction, just aged a little, the "square" shape to the mag pouch is identical, and the square top strap is carefully tucked under. The straps also have the metal plate attached, and as someone said are quite thin. He likely told the truth that this was the first 1917 Erfurt he had seen!

11-06-2015, 11:44 AM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Thank you all. You have confirmed my suspicions. dju

11-06-2015, 03:00 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	A 1917 Erfurt toggle stamp would have the broken crown lobe by then, wouldn't it? The stamp looks amazingly crisp compared to overall toggle condition and the small cross on the top of the crown migrating into the radius cut on the edge of the link all look either bogus or "freshened" to me.

11-07-2015, 11:03 AM	#14
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Who actually writes the description? Does the broker actually review it before posting and allowing such inaccuracies?

11-07-2015, 11:41 AM	#15
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	Richard: In Jan's Central book he shows: 1914 with a broken die., A 1916 without a broken die, a 1917 and 1918 with the break. So ????? Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-07-2015, 01:37 PM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	While I'm neither Ron nor George, I've never seen any German Luger part as rough as that toggle link. It gives new meaning to "wartime expedience". dju