Marney's Rules on Ethical Part Switching

1. Do not switch parts on a collectible.

2. Do not try to make a shooter into a collectible.

3. Change parts on a shooter only to make it shoot better or look better.

4. Refinish a shooter all you want to make it look pretty and to impress a non-collector, but do not sell it to a novice as a collectible Luger.

5. Do not shoot a collectible.

[bill m]

Hi,

Good advice!

Have a question though: What is a "collectible"?


Lets play "what if":


If I have a byf 41 with a mismatched trigger, and the gun is in 98% plus condition and matching except for the trigger - and it came directly from a vet -- is this a collectible or a shooter? Is it possible to be a collectibe to me and only a shooter to you? If you were going to sell it, would you price it as a collector piece or a shooter? It was not issued this way, so someone during WWII has replaced or exchanged this part. If I replace it with the correct number from another byf 41, and in the same condition as the rest of the gun, does this make it "more collectible" or is it still a shooter? Can anyone tell the difference? -- If this was an old car and the radio was wrong and you replaced it with the correct one, no one would think anything about it, so what makes this so different on a Luger?

Bill sounds like you have made a 360 from all your previous postings about parts changing. To cause an argument or real discussion.

[bill m]

I have always felt you could not tell the difference if you changed the part with a correct one, and if it was not as originally issued then there wasn't anything wrong with restoring it back to that condition. Others do not agree and that is there choice. You do not know if the gun you are buying has had any parts replaced or not, but you presume it hasn't if it is all matching numbers, but who knows?

Good deal Thanks Bill.

[Thor]

Bill M wrote "You do not know if the gun you are buying has had any parts replaced or not, but you presume it hasn't if it is all matching numbers, but who knows? " We really dont know do we? I think sometimes we try to feel satisfied that we bought an original as issued pistol, but who really knows? I do think that is important to come to grips with that predicament or at least recognize it. In the end, if I am convinced it is original, I would feel better. I think it is of paramount importance to learn as much as possible, so you purchase as smart as possible. You almost need to get burned to really appreciate how close you have to look at an item before you buy it. What really is an eyesore and a real party pooper is the ATTEMPT to restamp a part to MAKE IT MATCH! That is pretty easy to see in most cases. I have seen mag bottoms that were restamped so deep it was comical. And you see panagraphed engraved letters that have that beveled edge look that really is obvious. When you see numbers that are really correct, or appear to be, it just "looks and feels better" Sorry, tired and long winded tonight! Thor





Ted's Luger Strawing Service

Marney, by putting a matching no. sideplate on a mis-matched shooter wouldn't that fall into your number 3 rule? That would be making a shooter look better. If you tried to sell it as matching, that would be wrong. If all these guys are doing is make their shooter look better, more power to them. It's people like you who judge them prematurely that makes this hobby a drag.

Phil

[Roadkill]

Ya'll act like this only happens with Lugers. Parts are switched all the time and fakes abound in cars, antiques, jewelry, books, armor, art, anything that is collectible. The buyer better know what he is doing, as the price increases the risk multiplies. Its gonna happen and ethical purity will always be tainted by money.


Roadkill

[Dwight Gruber]

And you have just hit the nail squarely, and firmly, on the head. To some people, this is a hobby. To others, it is Serious Business.


--Dwight

[dgp42]

Seems to be that, Marney's posts somehow always incorporate some sort of rules for him or others to follow? IMO

Bill brings up some very interesting points when he gets into "what is collectible?" The dictionary avoids getting too deeply into this definition, as the closest it gets is to define "collect" as to "gather together or to assemble." From this one can assume that a person with one Luger is NOT a Luger collector, but if he has two or more Lugers (regardless of condition)he is definitely a "collector" by definition. It seems that it is up to the individual collector to decide what he regards as "collectible," and to make up his own standards as to what he will collect. Therefore, when we use the term "collectible" it should not be applied to just certain Lugers. It is a highly individual term which each of us must define for himself. The Luger owner who is happy with mismatched pistols in his collection is just as much a collector as the man who collects only rare, mint, matching examples. I am certain that the curator of a military museum would gladly include a Luger for display which is mismatched and badly pitted, and never give it a second thought. I doubt that the standards of the typical museum come anywhere near measuring up to the standards of a finicky private collector. So the bottom line is, we are free to do whatever makes us happy with our own Lugers as long as alterations are honestly disclosed to the next buyer. Unfortunately, at some future sale this disclosure policy will be abandoned.

[Dok]

that I think applies to bill m's question...


He said anything can be a "collectible", a point which some of you make, but he said the question should be "Does it have 'collector value'"? You can collect string and siver foil if you want, they're collectible, but do they have collctor value.


My feeling is the a pistol which has a mismatched trigger, still has some collector value because it is ORIGINAL, and if you chose to have the mismatched trigger RESTORED, then the collector value would and should INCREASE, and because it is the correct part, I don't feel disclosure is either required or necessary.


My two cents worth...


Dok

[Kyrie]

Hi Marney,


Interesting set of rules


Iâ??d sum the whole thing up with just one rule:


â??Donâ??t try to make a Luger look like it has more value than it actually does.â?�


I also avoid using the word â??collectableâ?�, as just about anything is collectable, and whether or not a Luger is collectable isnâ??t the issue. The real issues are collector value and not leaving booby traps for future collectors. Even the fellow who says, quite honestly, â??Iâ??m only swapping parts to please myself and will never misrepresent itâ?� is missing the point. While he may know itâ??s a fake and be honest and straightforward about it, the executor of his estate isnâ??t likely to be as knowledgeable and may not be so honest. And so the faked Luger will, eventually, be misrepresented to future collectors and will be used (intentionally or not) to defraud them. Thatâ??s not the kind of legacy I want to leave future collectors.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Dwight Gruber]

So, Kyrie, you are implying that one should not restore a Luger, yes?


--Dwight

[John D.]

Hi Dwight..!


Not to speak for Kyrie, as he is more then capable of speaking for himself, as does so quite eloquently - I think I know where he is coming from on this issue. That is the point that "anything" is collectable - in this case, we are talking about Lugers. Therefore - if someone "improves" the rendition of their current Luger - swapping parts or even a full restoration, it could be passed off in the future either knowingly or unknowingly - as an "unaltered original".


For example - there are some 'smiths capable of such restorations - John Martz, Gail Morgan, Thor - and handful of others whose work could be passed off in the future as an "original". In fact, I'm working following up on one such suspect Luger as we speak. Further, being all too familiar with Krieghoffs - there are some who would pass off an "original" as a "rework" that was done when parts swapping was easy and cheap, as Lugers were fairly inexpensive back in the â??50s and â??60s. For example â?? not long ago, some might take an HK Toggle and put it into a Chamber dated Mauser - and to the unsuspecting and uninformed â??collectorâ?� - they now have purchased a "rare" Kreighoff. Some spurious fakes are even more difficult to detect, as in the Krieghoff world â?? several gunsmith became quite adapt at even flaming/resurrecting the â??thumbprintâ?� on their â??restorationsâ?� â?? and sideframe inscribed Kriegs were very popular for quite a time. All these â??restoredâ?� Lugers do impact the current collector community.


I think the point Kyrie makes is valid - that if you change the aspects of your Luger to improve it to your own satisfaction, thatâ??s great!!! BUT, and at the same time - it needs to be noted somehow so that itâ??s not passed off as original in future generations. As how to do that, I'm not sure. I do know Thor puts is "viper" marks on his re-works (3 red dots) but I think in the collector community â?? itâ??s our responsibility to be sure that those same changes are note to that Lugerâ??s history, so it is not proffered as â??originalâ?� in the future (off my soap-box). As for restoring what you have â?? I think its fine, as long as it is noted as a restoration, so that future collectors arenâ??t purchasing anything other then a restoration.


YMMV - IMHO....

[Dwight Gruber]

[John D.]

I'm sorry....


OK - on the back of a Krieghoff's frame, just below the toggle cut-out, there is a small "semi-circular" dark area that was hardened at the factory (where the toggle â??notchâ?� strikes the frame at full recoil). That dark semi-circle is commonly referred to as a "thumbprint" by Krieg collectors - and you can see the "thumbprint" quite readily on un-restored Krieghoff Lugers (and some "good" restorations that mimic that same "thumbprint" by flame harding the metal in that area again).


Best to you..!

[Dwight Gruber]

[Kyrie]

Hi Dwight,


No sir, not at all. Restorations are fairly easy to spot and are seldom described as anything other than what they are.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Thor]

Wonder why this was done on Kriegs and not the Mauser Lugers of the same vintage? Thor



Ted's Luger Strawing Service