Otto Sindel holster

Olle · 12-01-2015, 09:31 PM

This holster is part of a collection I'm going to sell for a customer. I have been told that it is a police holster, and that Otto Sindel holsters were not sold to anybody but the police. The guy I talked to said that it would bring around $400 on eBay, and he offered me $350. This holster is a good as they come, so does that sound like a reasonable deal to you guys?

G.T. · 12-02-2015, 09:10 AM

Hi Olle, worth lots more than $350.00..

.. drop me a note, I'd like to have it as well?......GT

ChannelIsles · 12-03-2015, 04:35 PM

I had the misfortune to buy a Otto Sindel Holster recently that looked in similar condition, rough finish to inner flap & found it couldn't fit either a mag or luger - seller couldn't argue that one. Doesn't take long to check and be sure.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-03-2015, 06:18 PM

OK..Since this is in an open discussion thread and not a "for sale" thread..I have serious suspicions that this holster is a fake. There are a couple of things I would like to see that I cannot from the picture shown but there are important issues that just ain't right.

Olle · 12-04-2015, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

OK..Since this is in an open discussion thread and not a "for sale" thread..I have serious suspicions that this holster is a fake. There are a couple of things I would like to see that I cannot from the picture shown but there are important issues that just ain't right.

This is not a for sale thread and the holster is not even mine, so I would be happy to take pictures of any details you want to see. The owner gave me another 10-15 holsters yesterday, so I'm hoping to learn something about holsters as well.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 12:07 PM

Olle, Yes thank you. I would love to closely inspect the front closure stud. Top, side, in profile.
What concerns me a great deal is the stitching abnormalities I see. Let's take one area that bothers me. The two stitching lines to the bottom right of the left belt loop. These two lines are what hold in the pull-up strap. I would expect to see VERY robust doubled up thread here. I don't see it. I see a single stitch. I cannot tell you how many of these stitching lines I have removed over the years to take out broken lifting straps but, it has been many hundreds. I have NEVER seen one like I see here. It's just not how these were stitched on genuine German period holsters. So it's a handful of these abnormalities that concern me. It is a detail that would be easily overlooked by someone.

alanint · 12-04-2015, 12:14 PM

For what it is worth, someone is specifically faking the Otto Sindel brand.

http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Leather-.../dp/B00AER6490

Olle · 12-04-2015, 12:54 PM

The "Otto Sindel Berlin 1941" seems to be one of the more common marking on the reproductions, and that is one of the reasons why I posted it here to begin with. I'll try to post some detail pictures later, and I hope these will reveal what we actually have here.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 12:55 PM

I can't say yet if the holster we are discussing IS a fake? IF it is..it's a good one. It has me concerned but it has enough right that it's hard to tell without diving deeper into it. Especially with just photo's to work from. The ideal would be to have it in hand with 4-5 known original Otto Sindel holsters of the same date to compare. As it is I am relying on experience. What I have seen over 20 years and what I expect to see. When a mint example appears it SHOULD have the normal stitching characteristics..when it doesn't..it's time to get out the spyglass.

As Doug points out there ARE Fake Otto Sindel Sindel holsters on the market. They pale in comparison to Olle's. I have noticed fake holsters coming out of China are getting much better.

wlyon · 12-04-2015, 01:43 PM

I ,for one, would never purchase this holster at any price. Bill

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 03:00 PM

Bill Lyon is an opinion I deeply respect.

John Sabato · 12-04-2015, 04:01 PM

+1 on Bill Lyon's opinion.

Jerry, you are our "go to" guy for holsters and even you have doubts. I am no holster expert, and I have examined quite a few, but no where near as many as you. From first view of the photos, I have had a gut feeling that the stitching and some other details just don't look right to me either... The leather looks too new on the outside, and yet aged on the inside... ?????

Olle · 12-04-2015, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

For what it is worth, someone is specifically faking the Otto Sindel brand.

http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Leather-.../dp/B00AER6490

I think the horrible stitching would be a dead giveaway on that one.

Not even close to the one in question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

The leather looks too new on the outside, and yet aged on the inside... ?????

The outside does have age to it, it just doesn't have much wear. The black has faded in some places (I tried to capture this in one of the pictures), and really, the inside aging is not much more than some fine dry cracking and some marks from a pistol. It doesn't look artificially aged, just... well, "old", like it was put away 60 years ago. It smells like "old holster" as well, not that new leather smell you would expect from a reproduction.

Anyway, here are some more pictures for further study:

Olle · 12-04-2015, 06:53 PM

....and some more details:

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 08:47 PM

Olle, Thank you! Excellent photo's! I appreciate it. This is getting to be a real head scratcher!
The closure stud looks excellent. Lathe turned. Just as one would expect on an original. The thread is still disconcerting. It looks very much like cotton and not linen. The sections I would expect to see double stitches have not improved..where the pull-up strap is sewn. I am torn. There are several other areas of concern but I am beating you up for no good reason because I just can't nail it down. It has some very good reasons why it is and some very good reasons why it isn't.

Edward Tinker · 12-04-2015, 09:15 PM

Would cotton thread glow under a ultraviolet light?

Olle · 12-04-2015, 09:24 PM

Jerry,

No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition, and this might be that thing you can't put your finger on. If that's the case, I can't say that I blame you.

Even a slightly used holster without any wear does change in appearance, shape etc, and there are really not many original holsters in this condition to compare with. I looked at it again this afternoon, and while trying a gun in it I realized that the rub marks on the flap are from the leather it rubs against when it's closed. I can't see much of gun wear inside it, so maybe the lack of deformation from use is one of those details that bug you?

As you already know, holding a holster in your hand so you can look at it, touch it, feel it, sniff it, lick it etc. is totally different from looking at pictures, and this is why I'm thoroughly confused now. It looks old, feels old, smells old and I just cannot believe that somebody would be able to age a holster to look and feel like this. Let alone making a holster of this quality at a price that beats an original.

Like I have already said, it's not my holster so I don't have a dog in the fight. Now it's just a matter of my own curiosity and education, so I would really like to know what else you can see. Just let me know if you need more pictures, I would be happy to provide them. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I might even send it to you for examination.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 09:58 PM

No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition. Olle..Let me assure you, you could not be more wrong in thinking this. I have seen and handled MANY mint condition original holsters and owned many more. My thoughts on this one are purely technical and practical. I am not at all awed by it's condition.
On the other hand you are also correct. I suspect ANY holster in this condition simply for the reason that in 1941 the Germans not only made holsters but used them, NEEDED them. While it is possible to survive in this condition..it is rare enough to be suspicious on the face of it.
My analysis and the opinion of others that I respect point to something wrong. This holster is NOT all it should be. Of that I am certain.

Ed, No..cotton is a natural material and will not glow like synthetics do. The thread on Olle's holster is hairy where it shouldn't be. Ends sticking out here and there. Either it's cotton or it's linen but linen only gets this way after being very wet. This holster shows no evidence of having been wet..Dry linen just doesn't do this.

Just let me know if you need more pictures. Olle, yes! Can you get a closeup of the inside back panel where the stitching for the belt loops are? This is another area that will tell me more..
Thanks..I appreciate it!

Olle · 12-04-2015, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Would cotton thread glow under a ultraviolet light?

Not sure if it would and I don't have a UV light handy, but I took a few pics with my digital microscope (get you one of these guys, you'll love it: http://www.amazon.com/Carson-Zorb-Di.../dp/B002PCOM46) to see if I could spot any differences in the fibers.

The pictures were taken in places where the stitches were a bit frayed so you can see the separate fibers, and pic 1 is "the suspect", pic 2 is a cey 41 which is no doubt original. Color and appearance seem to be very similar, so can you guys see anything out of the ordinary here?

lugerholsterrepair · 12-04-2015, 10:16 PM

Olle..Amazing! Yes..it appears to be linen.

12-01-2015, 09:31 PM	#1
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Otto Sindel holster This holster is part of a collection I'm going to sell for a customer. I have been told that it is a police holster, and that Otto Sindel holsters were not sold to anybody but the police. The guy I talked to said that it would bring around $400 on eBay, and he offered me $350. This holster is a good as they come, so does that sound like a reasonable deal to you guys? Attached Thumbnails

12-02-2015, 09:10 AM	#2
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	top holster! Hi Olle, worth lots more than $350.00.... drop me a note, I'd like to have it as well?......GT

12-03-2015, 04:35 PM	#3
ChannelIsles User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Jersey Channel Islands Posts: 156 Thanks: 8 Thanked 33 Times in 16 Posts	Otto Sindel Holster I had the misfortune to buy a Otto Sindel Holster recently that looked in similar condition, rough finish to inner flap & found it couldn't fit either a mag or luger - seller couldn't argue that one. Doesn't take long to check and be sure.

12-03-2015, 06:18 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	OK..Since this is in an open discussion thread and not a "for sale" thread..I have serious suspicions that this holster is a fake. There are a couple of things I would like to see that I cannot from the picture shown but there are important issues that just ain't right. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 12:07 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Olle, Yes thank you. I would love to closely inspect the front closure stud. Top, side, in profile. What concerns me a great deal is the stitching abnormalities I see. Let's take one area that bothers me. The two stitching lines to the bottom right of the left belt loop. These two lines are what hold in the pull-up strap. I would expect to see VERY robust doubled up thread here. I don't see it. I see a single stitch. I cannot tell you how many of these stitching lines I have removed over the years to take out broken lifting straps but, it has been many hundreds. I have NEVER seen one like I see here. It's just not how these were stitched on genuine German period holsters. So it's a handful of these abnormalities that concern me. It is a detail that would be easily overlooked by someone. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 12:14 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	For what it is worth, someone is specifically faking the Otto Sindel brand. http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Leather-.../dp/B00AER6490

12-04-2015, 12:54 PM	#8
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	The "Otto Sindel Berlin 1941" seems to be one of the more common marking on the reproductions, and that is one of the reasons why I posted it here to begin with. I'll try to post some detail pictures later, and I hope these will reveal what we actually have here.

12-04-2015, 12:55 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I can't say yet if the holster we are discussing IS a fake? IF it is..it's a good one. It has me concerned but it has enough right that it's hard to tell without diving deeper into it. Especially with just photo's to work from. The ideal would be to have it in hand with 4-5 known original Otto Sindel holsters of the same date to compare. As it is I am relying on experience. What I have seen over 20 years and what I expect to see. When a mint example appears it SHOULD have the normal stitching characteristics..when it doesn't..it's time to get out the spyglass. As Doug points out there ARE Fake Otto Sindel Sindel holsters on the market. They pale in comparison to Olle's. I have noticed fake holsters coming out of China are getting much better. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 01:43 PM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	I ,for one, would never purchase this holster at any price. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

12-04-2015, 03:00 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Bill Lyon is an opinion I deeply respect. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 04:01 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	+1 on Bill Lyon's opinion. Jerry, you are our "go to" guy for holsters and even you have doubts. I am no holster expert, and I have examined quite a few, but no where near as many as you. From first view of the photos, I have had a gut feeling that the stitching and some other details just don't look right to me either... The leather looks too new on the outside, and yet aged on the inside... ????? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-04-2015, 06:53 PM	#14
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	....and some more details: Attached Thumbnails

12-04-2015, 08:47 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Olle, Thank you! Excellent photo's! I appreciate it. This is getting to be a real head scratcher! The closure stud looks excellent. Lathe turned. Just as one would expect on an original. The thread is still disconcerting. It looks very much like cotton and not linen. The sections I would expect to see double stitches have not improved..where the pull-up strap is sewn. I am torn. There are several other areas of concern but I am beating you up for no good reason because I just can't nail it down. It has some very good reasons why it is and some very good reasons why it isn't. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 09:15 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Would cotton thread glow under a ultraviolet light?

12-04-2015, 09:24 PM	#17
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Jerry, No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition, and this might be that thing you can't put your finger on. If that's the case, I can't say that I blame you. Even a slightly used holster without any wear does change in appearance, shape etc, and there are really not many original holsters in this condition to compare with. I looked at it again this afternoon, and while trying a gun in it I realized that the rub marks on the flap are from the leather it rubs against when it's closed. I can't see much of gun wear inside it, so maybe the lack of deformation from use is one of those details that bug you? As you already know, holding a holster in your hand so you can look at it, touch it, feel it, sniff it, lick it etc. is totally different from looking at pictures, and this is why I'm thoroughly confused now. It looks old, feels old, smells old and I just cannot believe that somebody would be able to age a holster to look and feel like this. Let alone making a holster of this quality at a price that beats an original. Like I have already said, it's not my holster so I don't have a dog in the fight. Now it's just a matter of my own curiosity and education, so I would really like to know what else you can see. Just let me know if you need more pictures, I would be happy to provide them. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I might even send it to you for examination.

12-04-2015, 09:58 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition. Olle..Let me assure you, you could not be more wrong in thinking this. I have seen and handled MANY mint condition original holsters and owned many more. My thoughts on this one are purely technical and practical. I am not at all awed by it's condition. On the other hand you are also correct. I suspect ANY holster in this condition simply for the reason that in 1941 the Germans not only made holsters but used them, NEEDED them. While it is possible to survive in this condition..it is rare enough to be suspicious on the face of it. My analysis and the opinion of others that I respect point to something wrong. This holster is NOT all it should be. Of that I am certain. Ed, No..cotton is a natural material and will not glow like synthetics do. The thread on Olle's holster is hairy where it shouldn't be. Ends sticking out here and there. Either it's cotton or it's linen but linen only gets this way after being very wet. This holster shows no evidence of having been wet..Dry linen just doesn't do this. Just let me know if you need more pictures. Olle, yes! Can you get a closeup of the inside back panel where the stitching for the belt loops are? This is another area that will tell me more.. Thanks..I appreciate it! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-04-2015, 10:16 PM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Olle..Amazing! Yes..it appears to be linen. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."