1908 Military First Issue <img BORDER="0" src='http://forum.rennlist.com/luger/pic.gif'>

Barry Briscoe · 04-22-2002, 12:49 PM

I have a 1908 Military First Issue which has some markings that are different from the ones listed in Harry Jones's Luger Variations book.The luger is in the 1500-2000 SN range,among the first lot of Lugers issued to the German military.I'll post some photos of the different markings and maybe someone can shed some light on them.

This first photo shows the underside of the rear toggle.The triangle within the circle is the same as the well markings on the 1902 Commercial and American Eagle,also the 1906 Commercial.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...9543296785.jpg

Marvin · 04-22-2002, 01:16 PM

Barry,

I don't know a lot about the early Lugers, But the photo shows what I think are DWM internal inspections stamps. Most manufacturing plants have their own internal inspection processes to control quality. That is what most of these are. You will also notice inside the takedown lever well there will be a myriad of different stamps for different time periods, when different inspectors were at work. Some of the internal stamps may also have been removed during the finishing process. The Government inspections stamps had to remain visible to assure that the pistols meet all the requirments for quality. Most collectors note the stamps, but don't get overly concerned about them and their meanings.

I would think that the stamps will continue to bew different on the pistols as the inspectors changed. In the NAPCA newletter, there was an articlbe by a member where he was trying to get the stamps inside the takedown lever well coordinated with the date of manufacture. If my memory serves me correctly, you could take his matrix and determine when the frame was made within about 1 year. Where this comes in handy is if there is a question about the pistol frame date vs the rest of the pistol. You could look up the stamps in the matrix for those stamps and see if it was correct for the pistol. Could be a good detector for a "faker".

Marvin

P.38 Forum

Barry Briscoe · 04-22-2002, 01:47 PM

I guess I should have mentioned that the pistol was a DWM.The first batch of 3,000 DWM 1908's were supposed to be delivered by March 31,1909.

The first issue DWM 1908's are also numbered like the commercial models.

Completed Erfurt guns were not delivered until 1911 even though the Erfurt factory started tooling for production in 1909.

Photo below of well mark,same mark is also on the back of the sideplate.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...6196617856.jpg

04-23-2002, 09:17 AM

This marking was first used on the 1906 Portugese contract lugers on the left receiver, rear of frame and mag bottom. By 1908 this use of this die was completed and the same die was then assigned to internal use by a particular DWM inspector. We can call him Mr. Portugese. It would be interesting to see how long he worked on luger production before moving elsewhere in the plant. Tom h.

Orv Reichert · 04-23-2002, 12:09 PM

For years I heard that meant 'Portuguese' but my friends in Germany said that it appears on too many of the pocket pistols to be correct?

It does appear on ALL the Portuguese contract Lugers, right?

Orv Reichert

Barry Briscoe · 04-23-2002, 02:20 PM

Orv: As far as I know, the triangle in a circle only appeared on the 1906 Portuguese M2 Army, and possibly on the very rare 1900 Portuguese. The Royal navy and RP navy had the MP (Marinea Portuguesa) proof. The 1935 GNR had the Mauser Crown/U proof.

Barry Briscoe · 04-25-2002, 05:31 PM

Marvin,

I checked the takedown lever and the only marks it has are the last two digits of the SN on lower side of it in the assembled position.

This gun had a two digit marked hold open latch added at a later date with an inspector's mark on the side of the frame next to the pin hole and a taller front sight with an inspector's mark also.

The mark on the side of the frame under the sideplate in one of the other photos that I posted resembles in my opinion a skull and crossbones,but it is not exactly clear;I was curious if anyone else would think so.

This is a photo with a small and large "T" in the photo(another couple of marks that I have been unable to find in the books I have)next to the recoil lug on the receiver.

Thanks for your help,Barry

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...4455187134.jpg

04-22-2002, 12:49 PM	#1
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1908 Military First Issue I have a 1908 Military First Issue which has some markings that are different from the ones listed in Harry Jones's Luger Variations book.The luger is in the 1500-2000 SN range,among the first lot of Lugers issued to the German military.I'll post some photos of the different markings and maybe someone can shed some light on them. This first photo shows the underside of the rear toggle.The triangle within the circle is the same as the well markings on the 1902 Commercial and American Eagle,also the 1906 Commercial. http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...9543296785.jpg

04-22-2002, 01:16 PM	#2
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1908 Military First Issue Barry, I don't know a lot about the early Lugers, But the photo shows what I think are DWM internal inspections stamps. Most manufacturing plants have their own internal inspection processes to control quality. That is what most of these are. You will also notice inside the takedown lever well there will be a myriad of different stamps for different time periods, when different inspectors were at work. Some of the internal stamps may also have been removed during the finishing process. The Government inspections stamps had to remain visible to assure that the pistols meet all the requirments for quality. Most collectors note the stamps, but don't get overly concerned about them and their meanings. I would think that the stamps will continue to bew different on the pistols as the inspectors changed. In the NAPCA newletter, there was an articlbe by a member where he was trying to get the stamps inside the takedown lever well coordinated with the date of manufacture. If my memory serves me correctly, you could take his matrix and determine when the frame was made within about 1 year. Where this comes in handy is if there is a question about the pistol frame date vs the rest of the pistol. You could look up the stamps in the matrix for those stamps and see if it was correct for the pistol. Could be a good detector for a "faker". Marvin P.38 Forum

04-22-2002, 01:47 PM	#3
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1908 DWM Military First Issue I guess I should have mentioned that the pistol was a DWM.The first batch of 3,000 DWM 1908's were supposed to be delivered by March 31,1909. The first issue DWM 1908's are also numbered like the commercial models. Completed Erfurt guns were not delivered until 1911 even though the Erfurt factory started tooling for production in 1909. Photo below of well mark,same mark is also on the back of the sideplate. http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...6196617856.jpg

04-23-2002, 09:17 AM	#4
Tom Heller Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Triangle in a circle This marking was first used on the 1906 Portugese contract lugers on the left receiver, rear of frame and mag bottom. By 1908 this use of this die was completed and the same die was then assigned to internal use by a particular DWM inspector. We can call him Mr. Portugese. It would be interesting to see how long he worked on luger production before moving elsewhere in the plant. Tom h.

04-23-2002, 12:09 PM	#5
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Triangle in a circle For years I heard that meant 'Portuguese' but my friends in Germany said that it appears on too many of the pocket pistols to be correct? It does appear on ALL the Portuguese contract Lugers, right? Orv Reichert

04-23-2002, 02:20 PM	#6
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1906 Portuguese Army has a triangle in a circle Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Re: Triangle in a circle Orv: As far as I know, the triangle in a circle only appeared on the 1906 Portuguese M2 Army, and possibly on the very rare 1900 Portuguese. The Royal navy and RP navy had the MP (Marinea Portuguesa) proof. The 1935 GNR had the Mauser Crown/U proof.

04-25-2002, 05:31 PM	#8
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Take down lever Marvin, I checked the takedown lever and the only marks it has are the last two digits of the SN on lower side of it in the assembled position. This gun had a two digit marked hold open latch added at a later date with an inspector's mark on the side of the frame next to the pin hole and a taller front sight with an inspector's mark also. The mark on the side of the frame under the sideplate in one of the other photos that I posted resembles in my opinion a skull and crossbones,but it is not exactly clear;I was curious if anyone else would think so. This is a photo with a small and large "T" in the photo(another couple of marks that I have been unable to find in the books I have)next to the recoil lug on the receiver. Thanks for your help,Barry http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/...4455187134.jpg