year and ammo for 7.65 Luger?

04-25-2002, 10:57 PM

Hi evryone, I finally got a Luger after years of wanting one. I've read enough on The Luger Forum to have figured out that by the crown over N markings and the 7.65mm caliber that its common and commercial and probably was made between world wars, but I was wondering if there was a way to tell what year it was made. Its a DWM serial number 8992 over a fancy shaped n. Also I cant seem to find that caliber bullet. Any suggestions on where to get them.

Johnny Peppers · 04-26-2002, 12:23 AM

According to Jan Still, you Luger was probably made in 1924. Winchester is currently making the .30 (7.65mm) Luger ammo. Might have to get your dealer to order some, as I have found none of my local dealers stocking it.

Marvin · 04-26-2002, 10:49 AM

Bryan,

Johnny is correct that Winchester makes the ammo, but finding someone is the tough part, plus it is expensive. Another alternative is a company called "Ammoman". I have included their website so just click on the work AMMOMAN and it will take youi to their site. It is located in the "Odd Ammo" or "Specialty" section. They sell the Fiocci brand and it does fire, but some Lugers don't operate and eject properly. We all feel it is a little underpowered, but less cost. It is about $20 per box of 50 rounds. This ammo works great in my two .30 cal Lugers, but others say it may not eject 100% of the time.

The only other option I know is to reload. That is what most of us do currently and they work great.

Marvin

AMMOMAN

unspellable · 04-26-2002, 02:52 PM

The Winchester stuff is underpowered. The Fiocchi stuff in the old silver box is even more underpowered. (Keep in mind there are Lugers out there with cut down recoil springs.) The Fiocchi stuff in the newer maroon box is yet more underpowered than even the stuff in the silver box. This is not guess work, I have been running them across my chronograph from various barrel lengths. Meanwhile, the more I dig for info on the old original DWM loads, the hotter they get. If this trend keeps up the original load will will exceed the SAAMI proof load. (In fact, the old model carbine load DOES exceed the SAAMI proof load.) while the current factory loads will fail to get the bullet out of the barrel.

In all seriousnous, I am conducting an extensive research project into the loading history of the 7.65 mm Parabellum cartdridge and what the Luger REALLY wants to work right.

I intend to develope some realistic handloads. Most of the loads I've found in the loading manuals are way too anemic.

I intend get a long string for pulling the trigger and to run the loads up to the point where the bluing flakes off of my mismatch. We'll really find something out before I'm done.

Eventually I will write this all up and perhaps we will have a 7.65 mm loading section to go with the 9 mm one.

This would be a good time to remind all that I am soliciting barrel diameter measurements on your 7.65 chambered guns, Lugers or otherwise as one of the questions is what's the REAL diameter? I've only had a handfull of replies to this request so far.

War stories on how well your pistol (Luger or otherwise) functions with factory ammo or handloads are also welcome. In the case of Lugers, count the number of turns on your recoil spring.

Any odd info you may have on this subject is also welcome. I intend to dig to China on this subject. I have already been harrasing Winchester, Fiocchi, and SAAMI. I have been in contact with Ruger, and CCI on this subject.

I WILL get to the bottom of it.

unspellable

04-26-2002, 03:04 PM

Thank you all for your help. I'm sure I'll be asking alot more qustions until I learn all there is to know, then I'll start answering them. ha ha....

Thor · 04-26-2002, 03:34 PM

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30lug.html

Funny Winchester and Fiocchi both list their loading at 1220 fps with a 93 gr bullet. I typically am running handloads up around 20% over recommended maximums to get the action to function. Sometimes I think this is because they have a 9mm replacement spring in them. As always, becareful, I think the loading for one pistol may be an overload for another. Thor

Marvin · 04-26-2002, 03:46 PM

unspellable,

This work you are doing will sure be a great help to those who fire this fine caliber. I can't give you a slug from my barrels due to being out of town, but I can state that my 1920 Commercial s/n 3426 k, that is like new mechanically with a mint bore, fired the Fiocci ammo perfectly. There was not one failure to fire, load, or eject and I fired almost 50 rounds.

My other 1920 Commercial fires it OK, but sometimes fails load a new cartridge and sometimes fails to hold the toggle open when the magazines in empty (I think may be a magazine problem and not ammo). The bore is on excellent condition, but does show that it has been fired.

Hope this info helps a little.

Marvin

AMMOMAN

Thor · 04-26-2002, 03:46 PM

More loading data for the 30 Luger.

http://www.vihtavuori.fi/vihtavuori/pistol/30luger.htm

unspellable · 04-26-2002, 06:57 PM

Winchester claims 1220 fps from a 4.5 inch test barrel. Fiocchi claims 1190 fps. Both figures are inflated, they won't make that velocity from a five inch barrel. Evey half inch in barrel length makes a substantial difference in velocity with the factory loads. (There's a lot to be said for the six inch barrel if you're hunting small game.) In the pistol the recoil operation will reduce the muzzle velocity by 10 to 20 fps as compared to a fixed test barrel, not a significant loss.

Thor, what can you tell me about recoil springs? My information says DWM used the same spring for both calibers, but there are several books around that mention trimming the spring to get the pistol to work with US factory loads. Are we seeing springs that have been shortened or are we seeing original length springs?

In the earliest DWM loads I have found so far (For the old model flat recoil spring) the 7.65 is very hot by today's standards while the 9 mm is fairly mild. The impulse for one is very close to the other so that a single spring would have worked for both.

unspellable

Thor · 04-26-2002, 09:22 PM

Tom Heller pointed out to me that the 30 Luger springs were 15 or 16 coils long and the 9s were 19 or 20. The book "Luger Variations" by Harry Jones says 14 turns for a 1906 Eagle 7.65, but it also says 19 turns for a 1920 Commercial 7.65. The spring in Bill Stanleys Eagle was shorter not shortened.

BILL · 04-26-2002, 09:58 PM

Thats cuz it is harder to squoosh that bullet through that skinny little barrel on the Eagle.

04-25-2002, 10:57 PM	#1
Bryan Guest Posts: n/a	year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Hi evryone, I finally got a Luger after years of wanting one. I've read enough on The Luger Forum to have figured out that by the crown over N markings and the 7.65mm caliber that its common and commercial and probably was made between world wars, but I was wondering if there was a way to tell what year it was made. Its a DWM serial number 8992 over a fancy shaped n. Also I cant seem to find that caliber bullet. Any suggestions on where to get them.

04-26-2002, 12:23 AM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? According to Jan Still, you Luger was probably made in 1924. Winchester is currently making the .30 (7.65mm) Luger ammo. Might have to get your dealer to order some, as I have found none of my local dealers stocking it.

04-26-2002, 10:49 AM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Bryan, Johnny is correct that Winchester makes the ammo, but finding someone is the tough part, plus it is expensive. Another alternative is a company called "Ammoman". I have included their website so just click on the work AMMOMAN and it will take youi to their site. It is located in the "Odd Ammo" or "Specialty" section. They sell the Fiocci brand and it does fire, but some Lugers don't operate and eject properly. We all feel it is a little underpowered, but less cost. It is about $20 per box of 50 rounds. This ammo works great in my two .30 cal Lugers, but others say it may not eject 100% of the time. The only other option I know is to reload. That is what most of us do currently and they work great. Marvin AMMOMAN

04-26-2002, 02:52 PM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? The Winchester stuff is underpowered. The Fiocchi stuff in the old silver box is even more underpowered. (Keep in mind there are Lugers out there with cut down recoil springs.) The Fiocchi stuff in the newer maroon box is yet more underpowered than even the stuff in the silver box. This is not guess work, I have been running them across my chronograph from various barrel lengths. Meanwhile, the more I dig for info on the old original DWM loads, the hotter they get. If this trend keeps up the original load will will exceed the SAAMI proof load. (In fact, the old model carbine load DOES exceed the SAAMI proof load.) while the current factory loads will fail to get the bullet out of the barrel. In all seriousnous, I am conducting an extensive research project into the loading history of the 7.65 mm Parabellum cartdridge and what the Luger REALLY wants to work right. I intend to develope some realistic handloads. Most of the loads I've found in the loading manuals are way too anemic. I intend get a long string for pulling the trigger and to run the loads up to the point where the bluing flakes off of my mismatch. We'll really find something out before I'm done. Eventually I will write this all up and perhaps we will have a 7.65 mm loading section to go with the 9 mm one. This would be a good time to remind all that I am soliciting barrel diameter measurements on your 7.65 chambered guns, Lugers or otherwise as one of the questions is what's the REAL diameter? I've only had a handfull of replies to this request so far. War stories on how well your pistol (Luger or otherwise) functions with factory ammo or handloads are also welcome. In the case of Lugers, count the number of turns on your recoil spring. Any odd info you may have on this subject is also welcome. I intend to dig to China on this subject. I have already been harrasing Winchester, Fiocchi, and SAAMI. I have been in contact with Ruger, and CCI on this subject. I WILL get to the bottom of it. unspellable

04-26-2002, 03:04 PM	#5
Bryan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Thank you all for your help. I'm sure I'll be asking alot more qustions until I learn all there is to know, then I'll start answering them. ha ha....

04-26-2002, 03:34 PM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30lug.html Funny Winchester and Fiocchi both list their loading at 1220 fps with a 93 gr bullet. I typically am running handloads up around 20% over recommended maximums to get the action to function. Sometimes I think this is because they have a 9mm replacement spring in them. As always, becareful, I think the loading for one pistol may be an overload for another. Thor

04-26-2002, 03:46 PM	#7
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? unspellable, This work you are doing will sure be a great help to those who fire this fine caliber. I can't give you a slug from my barrels due to being out of town, but I can state that my 1920 Commercial s/n 3426 k, that is like new mechanically with a mint bore, fired the Fiocci ammo perfectly. There was not one failure to fire, load, or eject and I fired almost 50 rounds. My other 1920 Commercial fires it OK, but sometimes fails load a new cartridge and sometimes fails to hold the toggle open when the magazines in empty (I think may be a magazine problem and not ammo). The bore is on excellent condition, but does show that it has been fired. Hope this info helps a little. Marvin AMMOMAN

04-26-2002, 03:46 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? More loading data for the 30 Luger. http://www.vihtavuori.fi/vihtavuori/pistol/30luger.htm

04-26-2002, 06:57 PM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Winchester claims 1220 fps from a 4.5 inch test barrel. Fiocchi claims 1190 fps. Both figures are inflated, they won't make that velocity from a five inch barrel. Evey half inch in barrel length makes a substantial difference in velocity with the factory loads. (There's a lot to be said for the six inch barrel if you're hunting small game.) In the pistol the recoil operation will reduce the muzzle velocity by 10 to 20 fps as compared to a fixed test barrel, not a significant loss. Thor, what can you tell me about recoil springs? My information says DWM used the same spring for both calibers, but there are several books around that mention trimming the spring to get the pistol to work with US factory loads. Are we seeing springs that have been shortened or are we seeing original length springs? In the earliest DWM loads I have found so far (For the old model flat recoil spring) the 7.65 is very hot by today's standards while the 9 mm is fairly mild. The impulse for one is very close to the other so that a single spring would have worked for both. unspellable

04-26-2002, 09:22 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Tom Heller pointed out to me that the 30 Luger springs were 15 or 16 coils long and the 9s were 19 or 20. The book "Luger Variations" by Harry Jones says 14 turns for a 1906 Eagle 7.65, but it also says 19 turns for a 1920 Commercial 7.65. The spring in Bill Stanleys Eagle was shorter not shortened.

04-26-2002, 09:58 PM	#11
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: year and ammo for 7.65 Luger? Thats cuz it is harder to squoosh that bullet through that skinny little barrel on the Eagle.